Starting count - at 0 or 1?

[bucky]

There was another thread involving an administering official's 5 second count for an inbound, ball being at the disposal, circular reasoning, etc.

One person, if I recall correctly, indicated that the visual start of the count determined that the ball was at the disposal of the inbounder. That got me thinking (uh oh!).

Who visually, by moving the arm, etc. starts at the number 0? Starts at 1? IOW, the ball may be at the disposal of an inbounder and the 5 second count begins. There is time between 0 and 1 second. So, if you visually signal your count by starting at 1, then the ball would be at the disposal of a player but no visual signal would have been given. If you visually signal the start of the count at 0, then indeed you would be indicating when it was at the disposal of the inbounder. Confused yet?

Example: When I administer, I say to myself when handing the ball to the inbounder (at his disposal), "0", with no mechanic or signal. My first arm movement is then at "1", my second arm movement at "2", and so forth for a total of 5 arm movements equaling 5 seconds.

Others I know hand the ball to the inbounder and immediately start their count with an initial arm movement representing the stating point or 0. Their 5 seconds expires when they have their 6th arm movement.

Clear as carbon dated mud-rock formations with fossil records?

(new year and already fine coming for too many words, sigh)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bucky

There was another thread involving an administering official's 5 second count for an inbound, ball being at the disposal, circular reasoning, etc.

One person, if I recall correctly, indicated that the visual start of the count determined that the ball was at the disposal of the inbounder. That got me thinking (uh oh!).

Who visually, by moving the arm, etc. starts at the number 0? Starts at 1? IOW, the ball may be at the disposal of an inbounder and the 5 second count begins. There is time between 0 and 1 second. So, if you visually signal your count by starting at 1, then the ball would be at the disposal of a player but no visual signal would have been given. If you visually signal the start of the count at 0, then indeed you would be indicating when it was at the disposal of the inbounder. Confused yet?

Example: When I administer, I say to myself when handing the ball to the inbounder (at his disposal), "0", with no mechanic or signal. My first arm movement is then at "1", my second arm movement at "2", and so forth for a total of 5 arm movements equaling 5 seconds.

Others I know hand the ball to the inbounder and immediately start their count with an initial arm movement representing the stating point or 0. Their 5 seconds expires when they have their 6th arm movement.

Clear as carbon dated mud-rock formations with fossil records?

(new year and already fine coming for too many words, sigh)

Those others are giving that player extra time if they are starting at 0 after handing the ball to the thrower. The moment the thrower is handed the ball should correspond to 0. If the first swing is 0, they've already had it for 1 second.

[FormerUmp]

As a fan in the stands, I would expect each arm swing to correspond with a second, starting with one.

I agree with Camron that I'd see waiting until the sixth arm swing to whistle it as giving extra time.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

Clear as carbon dated mud-rock formations with fossil records?

Welcome to the exciting world of index fossils.

[bob jenkins]

Agreed with Camron.

Try it this way, Bucky -- when you hand (or bounce) the ball to the inbounder, your arm is extended -- just as if you were making a count (the exact orientation of the hand might be different, of course) -- that's the "zero" count. Now you bring your hand back to your chest / shoulder -- that's 1/2 (or "and") then out for "one" etc.

[UNIgiantslayers]

Immediately upon handing or bouncing to thrower:
In my head- "Mississippi One"
Arm swing

5 seconds = 5 arm swings.

[Raymond]

I can't believe we're actually having this discussions.

Next thing you know Billy will come along and tell us that the book doesn't give clear guidance on when the 1st second actually occurs.

[just another ref]

As Raymond says, I can't believe this is a discussion. But since it is:

The arm swing is not an instant act. The first arm swing consumes the time between 0 and 1, the second consumes the time between 1 and 2........and so on.

Raymond and I will take your follow-up questions now.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by just another ref

As Raymond says, I can't believe this is a discussion. But since it is:

The arm swing is not an instant act. The first arm swing consumes the time between 0 and 1, the second consumes the time between 1 and 2........and so on.

Raymond and I will take your follow-up questions now.

Indeed, so based on that rational, the ball can be at the disposal of a player for an inbound, the count started, but no visual count seen yet. Correct?

CASE: A1 scores. B1 grabs the ball to inbound it. When is the official's count seen by everyone? Ruling: At one second.

Explanation: In the judgement of the official for this case, the ball is considered to be at the disposal of B1 when B1 grabs the ball. The official starts his count in his head and the first visual signal of the official's count would be at one second.

Correct?

Given all this, the ball can be at the disposal of a player and the official's count can be started all without a visual signal.

Correct?

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by bucky

Indeed, so based on that rational, the ball can be at the disposal of a player for an inbound, the count started, but no visual count seen yet. Correct?

CASE: A1 scores. B1 grabs the ball to inbound it. When is the official's count seen by everyone? Ruling: At one second.

Explanation: In the judgement of the official for this case, the ball is considered to be at the disposal of B1 when B1 grabs the ball. The official starts his count in his head and the first visual signal of the official's count would be at one second.

Correct?


Given all this, the ball can be at the disposal of a player and the official's count can be started all without a visual signal.

Correct?

The answer to the first question is clearly no. The arm swing ends at one second. So the visual cue is pretty much as soon as the count starts.

As to the second, I suppose there is a brief moment between the time the referee thinks "Ah, ha, it is at his disposal!" and the arm motion actually starts. But it should be far less than a second.

[just another ref]

On the subject of counts: I have heard all the stories about the importance of a proper count, all the way from the accuracy of the count itself to the importance of doing it with the correct hand. (Count with the hand closest to the thrower so he can see it. Seriously?) I see the importance of the visible count for closely guarded and for the OP, but for anything else, I really don't see the need for a visible count at all. Has anyone ever actually had a problem because of a visible count which was absent altogether, wrong number of swings on a violation, or.......?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

On the subject of counts: I have heard all the stories about the importance of a proper count, all the way from the accuracy of the count itself to the importance of doing it with the correct hand. (Count with the hand closest to the thrower so he can see it. Seriously?) I see the importance of the visible count for closely guarded and for the OP, but for anything else, I really don't see the need for a visible count at all. Has anyone ever actually had a problem because of a visible count which was absent altogether, wrong number of swings on a violation, or.......?

All the visible part of it really does is show someone that you're counting and how fast.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Next thing you know Billy will come along and tell us that the book doesn't give clear guidance on when the 1st second actually occurs.

Hey. Along with an extra whistle, I have a stopwatch in my pocket, I know how to use it, and I'm not afraid to use it.

Originally Posted by just another ref

On the subject of counts: I have heard all the stories about the importance of a proper count, all the way from the accuracy of the count itself to the importance of doing it with the correct hand. (Count with the hand closest to the thrower so he can see it. Seriously?) I see the importance of the visible count for closely guarded and for the OP, but for anything else, I really don't see the need for a visible count at all. Has anyone ever actually had a problem because of a visible count which was absent altogether, wrong number of swings on a violation, or.......?

Whenever I'm chopping I try to put the chopping arm toward the table so they can see it better. Thus, the count goes to the other arm.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

The answer to the first question is clearly no. The arm swing ends at one second. So the visual cue is pretty much as soon as the count starts.

As to the second, I suppose there is a brief moment between the time the referee thinks "Ah, ha, it is at his disposal!" and the arm motion actually starts. But it should be far less than a second.

I have to respectfully disagree with the answer to the first question and it looks as if you are saying yes by your sentence "The arm swing ends at one second." Clearly time elapses from 0 to one second at which time there would be no visual indication of a count.