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Old Sat Dec 30, 2017, 09:58pm
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Shooting foul at end of period

What I saw and heard from the stands, in order. This all happened bang, bang, bang, bang:

W44 grabs B23 on the arm as he begins his shot near the block. L blows his whistle. The buzzer sounds. B23 releases the shot which goes in the basket. Clock does not display tenths of a second.

Do you (a) count the goal and give B23 a FT with the lane cleared? (b) count the goal, use "definite knowledge" to put a second back on the clock and resume play with the FT? Or (c) waive off the goal and have B23 shoot two FTs with the lane empty?
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Old Sat Dec 30, 2017, 10:00pm
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Old Sat Dec 30, 2017, 11:42pm
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C. Foul or not, you still have to release the try before time expires. Sure, in theory the clock should stop before the release, but in NFHS, with neither PTS nor replay, there is a human response allowance for the timer to react. That said, foul on an unsuccessful try (assuming the foul was before the expiration of time) results in two (or three) free throws.

If—and this is a big if—somehow an official had definite knowledge of what the precise time was at the whistle, I suppose the official could count the basket, put the correct time back up, and shoot one with lane spaces occupied. Without that definite knowledge, you’d be guessing with respect to putting time back up. Don’t go there (apologies in advance to the 0.3ers out there, but there is no NFHS rules or case support for that). Be comfortable that you knew the release was late, honor the timer allowance, clear the lane, and shoot two.

NCAA w/ monitor = use it to determine all that you need to determine. With monitor, the only time you’d ever shoot throws in this scenario with the lane cleared is if there was a release, followed by time expiring, and then a foul on the airborne shooter.


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Old Sun Dec 31, 2017, 09:00am
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Not Guessing ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
If somehow an official had definite knowledge of what the precise time was at the whistle, I suppose the official could count the basket, put the correct time back up, and shoot one with lane spaces occupied.
Like one of the officials observing 0.9 seconds on the game clock when the whistle was sounded? That's not guessing. Right?
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Old Sun Dec 31, 2017, 09:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Like one of the officials observing 0.9 seconds on the game clock when the whistle was sounded? That's not guessing. Right?


Correct. Definite knowledge. Put 0.9 up and carry on.

As a non-calling official I want to and try to look up at the clock as soon as I hear a whistle. But I’ve had to train my brain to do this. It’s not instinctive, and I still don’t always do it, especially if there’s dead ball shenanigans going on or likely to occur.


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Old Mon Jan 01, 2018, 02:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
NCAA w/ monitor = use it to determine all that you need to determine. With monitor, the only time you’d ever shoot throws in this scenario with the lane cleared is if there was a release, followed by time expiring, and then a foul on the airborne shooter.


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Do you know, in this scenario do they look at the time the foul occurred, or when the official called the foul? A drive through the lane with marginal contact could be difficult to determine when a foul actually occurred, but an official with a patient whistle would obviously react after the foul should have been called.
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Old Mon Jan 01, 2018, 02:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frezer11 View Post
Do you know, in this scenario do they look at the time the foul occurred, or when the official called the foul? A drive through the lane with marginal contact could be difficult to determine when a foul actually occurred, but an official with a patient whistle would obviously react after the foul should have been called.
In writing that, I think I answered my own question, but lets focus on that first part, how can you determine when the foul actually occurred, especially on a call in which there is marginal contact during the drive and attempt?
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Old Mon Jan 01, 2018, 02:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frezer11 View Post
... do they look at the time the foul occurred, or when the official called the foul?
High school, no monitor:

NFHS 5-8-1-A: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official: Signals: A foul.

The foul doesn't stop the clock, the signal (simultaneous fist/stop clock signal) stops the clock.
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Old Mon Jan 01, 2018, 05:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frezer11 View Post
Do you know, in this scenario do they look at the time the foul occurred, or when the official called the foul? A drive through the lane with marginal contact could be difficult to determine when a foul actually occurred, but an official with a patient whistle would obviously react after the foul should have been called.
The NCAA rule is to restore the time at which the illegal contact occurred. The calling official would look at the video and determine the point at which he believed the foul took place. That is the moment at which the game clock would be halted.
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Old Mon Jan 01, 2018, 07:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frezer11 View Post
Do you know, in this scenario do they look at the time the foul occurred, or when the official called the foul? A drive through the lane with marginal contact could be difficult to determine when a foul actually occurred, but an official with a patient whistle would obviously react after the foul should have been called.
NCAAW: By definition, it's when the whistle is blown that matters.
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Old Tue Jan 02, 2018, 01:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
High school, no monitor:

NFHS 5-8-1-A: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official: Signals: A foul.

The foul doesn't stop the clock, the signal (simultaneous fist/stop clock signal) stops the clock.
What is the point of blowing the whistle? (stay with me on this) Where in the rule book is it a required action with regards to fouls and violations? Is it in the manual perhaps?
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Old Tue Jan 02, 2018, 10:13am
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Has their been a case play on this before? It seems familiar, but maybe it's been discussed here before.

The reason I ask is I'm wondering what the justification is for not counting the basket? I understand not being able to add time without knowledge, but why is the shooter not allowed continuous motion in this instance?

There is the rule stating that whether the clock is running or is stopped has no influence on the counting of a goal. And you know that the foul occurred prior to the expiration of time (whistle was before the horn). What is the rules/case reference to treat this different than the usual determination of whether or not the player had begun the trying or tapping movement?

Edit:
"A live-ball foul by the offense (team in control or last in control if the ball is loose), or the expiration of time for a quarter or extra period, causes the ball to become dead immediately, unless the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal. The ball also becomes dead when a player-control foul occurs."

I'm guessing this is the rules justification, but if you know the foul occurred prior to the expiration of time, then I think you have a strong argument that this doesn't apply.

Last edited by HokiePaul; Tue Jan 02, 2018 at 10:19am.
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Old Tue Jan 02, 2018, 12:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HokiePaul View Post
Has their been a case play on this before? It seems familiar, but maybe it's been discussed here before.
You can get some of it from 5.6.2D (last year's reference).

There have been other cases that contain more detail -- the point is that unless an official sees the time remaining, then the timer is allowed some "normal reaction time*" to stop the clock, so the time is allowed to expire in the OP.

If there is replay (as in NCAA), then you can go back and add time -- we can't arbitrarily add time in HS (nor in NCAA (at least NCAAW) when there is no monitor

* -- I am not sure if that phrase still exists in the books or not (it used to be limited to 1 second, but I know that part was removed -- the concept still applies unless an official has definite knowledge of the time)

Last edited by bob jenkins; Tue Jan 02, 2018 at 12:25pm.
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Old Tue Jan 02, 2018, 09:03pm
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Whistle While You Work ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
What is the point of blowing the whistle? (stay with me on this) Where in the rule book is it a required action with regards to fouls and violations? Is it in the manual perhaps?
Rulebook? Doesn't mention whistles.

IAABO Manual: Sound whistle simultaneously with the foul signal.
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