10-4-2

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Alabama_ref

This actually happened in my game last night. 6 ft out of bounds and was first to catch ball after returning. Violation. It was during a play not a delay following a throw in. 1st time ever calling it 10 yrs in.

Rules reference, if you please...
Sincerely hope you refrain from making that call the rest of your career.

BTW, welcome to the forum. You will benefit greatly from current threads and the more than 10 years of archives.

[Alabama_ref]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Rules reference, if you please...
Sincerely hope you refrain from making that call the rest of your career.

BTW, welcome to the forum. You will benefit greatly from current threads and the more than 10 years of archives.

Y'all are correct on not having be the first to touch. However the player was clearly gaining an advantage by avoiding the defense. I was merely stating first to touch because had it been a few passes before he got the ball I would not have made the call (because at that point I don't feel as he would of gained an advantage and would have been a mere "play on". And yes I hope to never have to make that call ever again.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Alabama_ref

... the player was clearly gaining an advantage by avoiding the defense.

A few years ago (maybe it was a few decades ago) I had an offensive player run out of bounds around a screen, and he almost ran me over as the lead official. It surprised me, and I let it go, but vowed to call the violation the next time he did it. After a switch after a foul, my partner was now the lead on the same endline and made the call without me telling him anything about the situation.

Originally Posted by Alabama_ref

I hope to never have to make that call ever again.

That's the closest I've come to making this call. If I see it again, I will call it.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Alabama_ref

Y'all are correct on not having be the first to touch. However the player was clearly gaining an advantage by avoiding the defense. I was merely stating first to touch because had it been a few passes before he got the ball I would not have made the call (because at that point I don't feel as he would of gained an advantage and would have been a mere "play on". And yes I hope to never have to make that call ever again.

You'll learn to parse your words correctly with this crowd
Lots of sharp cookies here.

Agree, this sitch does require a solid understanding of advantage gained. That was a major point when this action changed from violation to a T several years back.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by justacoach

... this action changed from violation to a T several years back.

I was about to comment on this (above) but wasn't 100% sure. Thanks for the reminder. Anybody remember when this occurred?

[Alabama_ref]

Originally Posted by justacoach

You'll learn to parse your words correctly with this crowd
Lots of sharp cookies here.

Agree, this sitch does require a solid understanding of advantage gained. That was a major point when this action changed from violation to a T several years back.

I'm a little confused. Are you saying my situation should have been a technical? All rules references I find regarding my situation states a violation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Alabama_ref

I'm a little confused.

Somewhere along the line this thread split into two different situations: an inbounder staying out of bounds, and a player on the court intentionally moving out of bounds.

An inbounder (actually any player legally out of bounds) purposely staying out of bounds to deceive the opponent team is a technical foul.

A player shall not: Purposely and/or deceitfully delay returning after legally being out of bounds.

A player on the court gaining an advantage by moving out of bounds is a violation.

A player shall not leave the court for an unauthorized reason.

[Alabama_ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Somewhere along the line this thread split into two different situations: an inbounder staying out of bounds, and a player on the court intentionally moving out of bounds.

An inbounder purposely staying out of bounds to deceive the opponent team is a technical foul.

A player on the court gaining an advantage by moving out of bounds is a violation.

Yes. That is my fault. I split the thread and accept full responsibility. I'm a newb

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Alabama_ref

I split the thread and accept full responsibility.

Some of us do it all the time (I'm one of the biggest offenders). One situation brings to mind a similar situation and it goes on from there.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Agree, this sitch does require a solid understanding of advantage gained. That was a major point when this action changed from violation to a T several years back.

1) A player legally OOB and then returning deceitfully does require an understanding of advantage gained.

2) A player leaving the court for an unauthorized reason does not require an understanding of an advantage gained. Whether there is an advantage or not is irrelevant to leaving the court for an unauthorized reason. As soon as the player leaves the court, the violation is to be called (under NFHS rules), regardless of whether the player gains an advantage when returning to the court.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

2) A player leaving the court for an unauthorized reason does not require an understanding of an advantage gained. Whether there is an advantage or not is irrelevant to leaving the court for an unauthorized reason. As soon as the player leaves the court, the violation is to be called (under NFHS rules), regardless of whether the player gains an advantage when returning to the court.

A player shall not leave the court for an unauthorized reason.

True regarding the specific wording of the rule in question. But one should be able to intelligently apply the rules in all situations.

The Intent And Purpose Of The Rules
… it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may
be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player or a team should not be
permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be
permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not
intended by a rule.

justacoach made a good point, maybe he oversold it, but it was still a good point.

Originally Posted by justacoach

... this sitch does require a solid understanding of advantage gained.

I would like to hear more about the history of this change from a violation to a technical foul.

Originally Posted by justacoach

... a major point when this action changed from violation to a T several years back.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

one should be able to intelligently apply the rules in all situations..[/I]

I don't think anything in my post implies otherwise. I was actually trying to help people intelligently apply the rule by pointing out when "advantage gained" is a consideration and when it's not.

As others have pointed out, the thread has evolved in such a way that we are now discussing two distinct rules: one a violation, and the other a technical foul. I was simply pointing out that "advantage gained" applies in the latter situation, but not in the former.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

... one a violation, and the other a technical foul. I was simply pointing out that "advantage gained" applies in the latter situation, but not in the former.

Please let's (plural) not turn this thread into a general discussion regarding whether, or not, advantage/disadvantage only applies to fouls and not to violations (three seconds, ten seconds on free throws).

An offensive player going around a screen and barely stepping on a boundary line (not due to momentum, but simply because he's not looking at the boundary line, he didn't intend to run out of bounds) is a little different than an offensive player going around a screen and going three feet out of bounds because he intended to run out of bounds, he thinks that that's the only way (speed, angle, etc., ) for him to get open. The former may probably not be a violation, the latter may probably be a violation. And in the latter case, I'm not an advocate of waiting to see if his illegal advantage was successful (getting open and successfully receiving a pass).

[Alabama_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

1) A player legally OOB and then returning deceitfully does require an understanding of advantage gained.

2) A player leaving the court for an unauthorized reason does not require an understanding of an advantage gained. Whether there is an advantage or not is irrelevant to leaving the court for an unauthorized reason. As soon as the player leaves the court, the violation is to be called (under NFHS rules), regardless of whether the player gains an advantage when returning to the court.

Rather right or wrong. I am going to apply advantage gained in both situations in regards to making either of these calls.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by justacoach

You'll learn to parse your words correctly with this crowd
Lots of sharp cookies here.

Agree, this sitch does require a solid understanding of advantage gained. That was a major point when this action changed from violation to a T several years back.

You have it backwards. It was changed from a T to a violation...unless you're going much farther back than I remember.