Maui Invitational Video Plays (Marq vs Wichita St)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Oh I definitely agree the offensive player moved forward to draw the contact. That's without question. My understanding of the NCAA-M emphasis is more for the play where the defender is clearly going to the side of the offensive player and the offensive player moves laterally to intercept the defenders path.

I do not think this play with the defender still airborne, in front of the shooter, moving toward the offensive player is the type of play that demands a no-call. The defender might have returned one foot to the ground but I'm not good enough to tell in real time.

The defender jumped in a direction that would have avoided the shooter. Defenders are entitled to their space also. The shooter took such an unnatural motion with his shot that he ended up shooting with his off-hand.

I'm no-calling this based on what I see on video, which is:

1) defender jumps in a path that is not in the direction of the shooter

2) shooter takes an unnatural in order to seek out contact

When I review video, I don't say "I would not have seen that in real time". When I review video, I say "I need to look for that in my games so I can get it correct."

Originally Posted by Raymond

When I review video, I don't say "I would not have seen that in real time". When I review video, I say "I need to look for that in my games so I can get it correct."

My first time watching a play at full-speed is most important to me IMO, cuz that is most similar to what happens in-game. Sure you can slow down the video and go frame-by-frame and parse things but that doesn’t really help cuz we don’t referee on the floor that way.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

My first time watching a play at full-speed is most important to me IMO, cuz that is most similar to what happens in-game. Sure you can slow down the video and go frame-by-frame and parse things but that doesn’t really help cuz we don’t referee on the floor that way.

The hell it doesn't. It shows that what we think we see on the court is not always what actually happens, and that we need to adjust how we are looking at plays.

That is one of the purposes of video. Look for reasons to get plays right, not excuses to get them wrong.

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[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Raymond

The hell it doesn't. It shows that what we think we see on the court is not always what actually happens, and that we need to adjust how we are looking at plays.

That is one of the purposes of video. Look for reasons to get plays right, not excuses to get them wrong.

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Agree. Slow motion replay is to understand how we got it wrong and then know what it would look like at full speed so we can get it right at full speed.

Originally Posted by Raymond

The hell it doesn't. It shows that what we think we see on the court is not always what actually happens, and that we need to adjust how we are looking at plays.

That is one of the purposes of video. Look for reasons to get plays right, not excuses to get them wrong.

Hope you’re not implying that I am looking for excuses to get plays wrong.

Pretty sure it’s a given that what we see on the court is not what actually happens. I go slo-mo sometimes to break down a play to see if I got it right or not, but again, that’s not how we referee in real time. The best thing a Ref can do when watching video and finding ways to get better is pretending you are one of the officials in the floor and watching the game at full speed. What should that Ref be watching? When should he switch to a different competitive matchup? When should he switch on ball? Where should he move to see the play? Which defender is he refereeing on a multiple defender play? What’s the obvious call in a situation? Those are the questions I ask — I don’t make excuses, and parsing slo-mo video doesn’t help anyone referee better.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Hope you’re not implying that I am looking for excuses to get plays wrong.

Pretty sure it’s a given that what we see on the court is not what actually happens. I go slo-mo sometimes to break down a play to see if I got it right or not, but again, that’s not how we referee in real time. The best thing a Ref can do when watching video and finding ways to get better is pretending you are one of the officials in the floor and watching the game at full speed. What should that Ref be watching? When should he switch to a different competitive matchup? When should he switch on ball? Where should he move to see the play? Which defender is he refereeing on a multiple defender play? What’s the obvious call in a situation? Those are the questions I ask — I don’t make excuses, and parsing slo-mo video doesn’t help anyone referee better.

How do you know what makes other officials better? Maybe it doesn't make you better you can't speak what it does for me.

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Originally Posted by Raymond

How do you know what makes other officials better? Maybe it doesn't make you better you can't speak what it does for me.

I'm interested in hearing exactly how in this play you are supposed to 1) referee the defenders upper body to know whether it is moving forward or not and 2) judge exactly when one foot touches down making the defender legal.

I'm arguing there are limits to which we can detect parts of a given play. If you want to argue that the defenders big toe touches down before the offensive player initiates contact -- fine. I'm saying I (and any other human) can't see two things at once. Which is why we have judgement. In this play I lean towards calling a foul, whereas you lean the opposite way. That's fine. Just understand that most coaches (who write the rules and to an extent govern an officials advancement) would see this play as an obvious foul.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I'm interested in hearing exactly how in this play you are supposed to 1) referee the defenders upper body to know whether it is moving forward or not and 2) judge exactly when one foot touches down making the defender legal.

I'm arguing there are limits to which we can detect parts of a given play. If you want to argue that the defenders big toe touches down before the offensive player initiates contact -- fine. I'm saying I (and any other human) can't see two things at once. Which is why we have judgement. In this play I lean towards calling a foul, whereas you lean the opposite way. That's fine. Just understand that most coaches (who write the rules and to an extent govern an officials advancement) would see this play as an obvious foul.

Coaches are the ones who wrote the rule that they don't want Shooters making unnatural movements to draw contact and get a foul on Defenders who are jumping past, and not into the shooter.

And let's say that the defender was still airborne. He jumped to that spot before the shooter did. The shooter had stopped and then after the defender had jumped to that position, the shooter jumped in that direction.

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[BigCat]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I'm interested in hearing exactly how in this play you are supposed to 1) referee the defenders upper body to know whether it is moving forward or not and 2) judge exactly when one foot touches down making the defender legal.

I'm arguing there are limits to which we can detect parts of a given play. If you want to argue that the defenders big toe touches down before the offensive player initiates contact -- fine. I'm saying I (and any other human) can't see two things at once. Which is why we have judgement. In this play I lean towards calling a foul, whereas you lean the opposite way. That's fine. Just understand that most coaches (who write the rules and to an extent govern an officials advancement) would see this play as an obvious foul.

Arem, you have to see the whole play at once. You've got an offensive player obviously diving in to draw a foul. Really, really obvious. I'm not giving him that call. Your statement that most coaches and those who govern ....would see this as an "obvious foul" is absurd.

And i wont be looking for the defenders big toe hitting ground etc. This is where judgment comes into play. Offensive player dives in... i need to see more from defender, moving at him , trying block shot etc. this defender is trying to get the hell out of way. Now, you can call it a foul. Obviously, these guys did. I dont agree. Think they both should have passed. it certainly isnt an obvious foul..

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

My first time watching a play at full-speed is most important to me IMO, cuz that is most similar to what happens in-game. Sure you can slow down the video and go frame-by-frame and parse things but that doesn’t really help cuz we don’t referee on the floor that way.

The purpose of seeing video is to see plays that will happen in your game. This play happens a lot in games and because I have seen a lot of videos, I am likely not to call that foul like this on the defensive player. And this is especially the case when I the NCAA says to not call these at all on the defender.

Peace