Maui Invitational Video Plays (Marq vs Wichita St)

Originally Posted by Raymond

Was the defender even Airborne when contact was made? Or had his first foot already hit the ground and the shooter stepped into him?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

He has a right to his spot. And he is not responsible for contact when a shooter throws himself into his position. The NCAA made this very clear they do not want this to be a foul on the defender when the there would be no contact as a result of the shooter's unnatural motion into him.

Oh I definitely agree the offensive player moved forward to draw the contact. That's without question. My understanding of the NCAA-M emphasis is more for the play where the defender is clearly going to the side of the offensive player and the offensive player moves laterally to intercept the defenders path.

I do not think this play with the defender still airborne, in front of the shooter, moving toward the offensive player is the type of play that demands a no-call. The defender might have returned one foot to the ground but I'm not good enough to tell in real time.

Originally Posted by deecee

Simply saying a defender isn't "legal" isn't grounds to call a foul on him all the time. Unless covered by situation/rules a better use is "what did the defender do wrong?"

The offensive player jumped into the defender simply to "draw" a foul and in no way looked natural. I'm passing on this unless told otherwise.

I didn't say all the time. I said in this specific instance. What did the defender do wrong in this instance? He jumped first, jumping toward the offensive player, compromising his position. Can't play legal defense jumping toward an offensive player and there being significant contact. Offensive player was smart to see the illegal defender and move forward to take the contact.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Oh I definitely agree the offensive player moved forward to draw the contact. That's without question. My understanding of the NCAA-M emphasis is more for the play where the defender is clearly going to the side of the offensive player and the offensive player moves laterally to intercept the defenders path.

I do not think this play with the defender still airborne, in front of the shooter, moving toward the offensive player is the type of play that demands a no-call. The defender might have returned one foot to the ground but I'm not good enough to tell in real time.

The defender jumped in a direction that would have avoided the shooter. Defenders are entitled to their space also. The shooter took such an unnatural motion with his shot that he ended up shooting with his off-hand.

I'm no-calling this based on what I see on video, which is:

1) defender jumps in a path that is not in the direction of the shooter

2) shooter takes an unnatural in order to seek out contact

When I review video, I don't say "I would not have seen that in real time". When I review video, I say "I need to look for that in my games so I can get it correct."

Originally Posted by Raymond

When I review video, I don't say "I would not have seen that in real time". When I review video, I say "I need to look for that in my games so I can get it correct."

My first time watching a play at full-speed is most important to me IMO, cuz that is most similar to what happens in-game. Sure you can slow down the video and go frame-by-frame and parse things but that doesn’t really help cuz we don’t referee on the floor that way.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

My first time watching a play at full-speed is most important to me IMO, cuz that is most similar to what happens in-game. Sure you can slow down the video and go frame-by-frame and parse things but that doesn’t really help cuz we don’t referee on the floor that way.

The hell it doesn't. It shows that what we think we see on the court is not always what actually happens, and that we need to adjust how we are looking at plays.

That is one of the purposes of video. Look for reasons to get plays right, not excuses to get them wrong.

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[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Raymond

The hell it doesn't. It shows that what we think we see on the court is not always what actually happens, and that we need to adjust how we are looking at plays.

That is one of the purposes of video. Look for reasons to get plays right, not excuses to get them wrong.

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Agree. Slow motion replay is to understand how we got it wrong and then know what it would look like at full speed so we can get it right at full speed.

Originally Posted by Raymond

The hell it doesn't. It shows that what we think we see on the court is not always what actually happens, and that we need to adjust how we are looking at plays.

That is one of the purposes of video. Look for reasons to get plays right, not excuses to get them wrong.

Hope you’re not implying that I am looking for excuses to get plays wrong.

Pretty sure it’s a given that what we see on the court is not what actually happens. I go slo-mo sometimes to break down a play to see if I got it right or not, but again, that’s not how we referee in real time. The best thing a Ref can do when watching video and finding ways to get better is pretending you are one of the officials in the floor and watching the game at full speed. What should that Ref be watching? When should he switch to a different competitive matchup? When should he switch on ball? Where should he move to see the play? Which defender is he refereeing on a multiple defender play? What’s the obvious call in a situation? Those are the questions I ask — I don’t make excuses, and parsing slo-mo video doesn’t help anyone referee better.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Hope you’re not implying that I am looking for excuses to get plays wrong.

Pretty sure it’s a given that what we see on the court is not what actually happens. I go slo-mo sometimes to break down a play to see if I got it right or not, but again, that’s not how we referee in real time. The best thing a Ref can do when watching video and finding ways to get better is pretending you are one of the officials in the floor and watching the game at full speed. What should that Ref be watching? When should he switch to a different competitive matchup? When should he switch on ball? Where should he move to see the play? Which defender is he refereeing on a multiple defender play? What’s the obvious call in a situation? Those are the questions I ask — I don’t make excuses, and parsing slo-mo video doesn’t help anyone referee better.

How do you know what makes other officials better? Maybe it doesn't make you better you can't speak what it does for me.

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Originally Posted by Raymond

How do you know what makes other officials better? Maybe it doesn't make you better you can't speak what it does for me.

I'm interested in hearing exactly how in this play you are supposed to 1) referee the defenders upper body to know whether it is moving forward or not and 2) judge exactly when one foot touches down making the defender legal.

I'm arguing there are limits to which we can detect parts of a given play. If you want to argue that the defenders big toe touches down before the offensive player initiates contact -- fine. I'm saying I (and any other human) can't see two things at once. Which is why we have judgement. In this play I lean towards calling a foul, whereas you lean the opposite way. That's fine. Just understand that most coaches (who write the rules and to an extent govern an officials advancement) would see this play as an obvious foul.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

My first time watching a play at full-speed is most important to me IMO, cuz that is most similar to what happens in-game. Sure you can slow down the video and go frame-by-frame and parse things but that doesn’t really help cuz we don’t referee on the floor that way.

The purpose of seeing video is to see plays that will happen in your game. This play happens a lot in games and because I have seen a lot of videos, I am likely not to call that foul like this on the defensive player. And this is especially the case when I the NCAA says to not call these at all on the defender.

Peace