Interpretations Check

[Zoochy]

Originally Posted by referee99

SITUATION 4: Team A is making a throw-in near the division line in the team’s backcourt (Team B’s frontcourt). A1’s throw-in is deflected by B1 who is applying direct pressure on A1. B2 jumps from his/her frontcourt, catches the ball in the air and lands in the backcourt.

RULING: Backcourt violation on Team B. The throw-in ends with B1’s deflection (legal touch). When B2 gains possession/ control in the air, he/she has frontcourt status. A backcourt violation has occurred when B2 lands in backcourt. (9-9-1, 9-9-3)

In situation #6 that Freddy posted, B2 jumps from his BACKCOURT, which is not included in 9-9-3 as an exception. (H/T Nevada for pointing that out from a similar thread in 2006!)

These are my questions form 2008(?). They created a lot of discussion, thus the Rule interps. There is no difference if the ball is caught by Team A nor Team B while they are in the air after the Throw-in was touched, The airborn player catching the ball IS NOT given the Back Court exception.. Oh well

[Smitty]

I'm not sure why there is so much confusion - once the ball is deflected, the throw-in ends and so does the exception. What difference does it make what happens after that?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Smitty

I'm not sure why there is so much confusion - once the ball is deflected, the throw-in ends and so does the exception. What difference does it make what happens after that?

The question is not about what happens next, it's about "defensive" status since a defensive player is allowed to intercept any other pass while jumping from their FC and landing in their BC.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Raymond

The question is not about what happens next, it's about "defensive" status since a defensive player is allowed to intercept any other pass while jumping from their FC and landing in their BC.

Are you (and others) questioning what the rule *is* or what the rule *should be*?

The former seems clear to me and is consistent among all codes (I think.)

We can discuss the latter -- heck, I'd like to expand the defensive exception so a player not in the air can steal the ball and proceed to the backcourt if s/he's unable to stop (a "momentum exception")

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Are you (and others) questioning what the rule *is* or what the rule *should be*?

The former seems clear to me and is consistent among all codes (I think.)

We can discuss the latter -- heck, I'd like to expand the defensive exception so a player not in the air can steal the ball and proceed to the backcourt if s/he's unable to stop (a "momentum exception")

I thought it was clear that the initial question was about the defensive's backcourt exception when intercepting a pass. The OP wanted to confirm that the defense's BC exception does not exist on a tipped throw-in.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I thought it was clear that the initial question was about the defensive's backcourt exception when intercepting a pass. The OP wanted to confirm that the defense's BC exception does not exist on a tipped throw-in.

Yes -- that's what the OP wanted. Yes -- that's been confirmed. Obviously, though, there's more to the thread than this or it wouldn't be at 20 posts.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Smitty

I'm not sure why there is so much confusion - once the ball is deflected, the throw-in ends and so does the exception. What difference does it make what happens after that?

Because I am giving B2 the defensive player exception, not the throw-in exception. The interp this season is the first one that I've ever seen which states that a defensive player doesn't get his backcourt exception if the pass is tipped. I've never seen that before in twenty years of NFHS officiating and believe that it is a mistake.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Because I am not giving B2 the defensive player exception, not the throw-in exception.

During a throwin, or jump ball, any player; or a defensive player, in making a steal; may legally jump from his, or her, frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor, and return to the floor with one, or both, feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing, and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt, or the backcourt. These three situations are not backcourt violations.

[SC Official]

The defensive exception doesn’t exist until player control inbounds has been established. It’s clear that that’s the way the FED expects this to be adjudicated.

[bob jenkins]

I have to edit my previous statement on NCAAW. This just came out:

QUESTION:

Team A is making a throw-in near the division line in the team’s backcourt (Team B’s frontcourt). A1’s throw-in is deflected by B1, who is applying direct pressure on A1. B2 jumps from her frontcourt, catches the ball in the air and lands in her team’s backcourt. Is this a backcourt violation?

ANSWER:

When the ball is at A1’s disposal for the throw-in, Team A has team control (Rules 4-10.a, 4-8.1.a, 4-8.2.a). Team control continues after the release of the throw-in until the opponents gain control of the ball or the ball becomes dead (Rule 4-8.3). Even though the throw-in ended when B1 touched the throw-in pass, it did not end Team A’s team control. B2, as a defensive player, may jump from her frontcourt, gain control of the ball while airborne, and then land with one or both feet in her backcourt, as this is the exception to the backcourt rule (Rule 9-12.9).

This is a legal play.

[CallMeMrRef]

Originally Posted by SC Official

The defensive exception doesn’t exist until player control inbounds has been established. It’s clear that that’s the way the FED expects this to be adjudicated.

I don't know where the idea comes from that there is not any offense or defense until the ball is controlled inbounds. in this years points of emphasis, the NFHS clearly seems to think that the team taking the ball in bounds is on offense, hence the other team B must be on defense:

From page 69 of the rule book: ...BY RULE EXCEPTION, during a throw-in a team may leave the front court, establish player control/team control while airborne and land in the backcourt. This is a legal play and ONLY applies to the first player of the offense who touches the ball PRIOR to the end of the throw-in.

It is my opinion that the NFHS has twisted this interpretation - and apparently did the same thing back in 2007, when the same play was interpreted. Interesting to note that this play was NOT in last year's case book...It would be interesting to see when it was removed.

As for Situation #6 - I also agree that the defense should always be allowed to intercept a pass and not be responsible from where he took off. BUT also agree that the current language only applies to a defender who leaves the floor from his frontcourt. the NFHS should fix this language as well.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by CallMeMrRef

...BUT also agree that the current language only applies to a defender who leaves the floor from his frontcourt. the NFHS should fix this language as well.

If the defensive player is jumping from his backcourt, it doesn't matter where he lands.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Because I am giving B2 the defensive player exception, not the throw-in exception. The interp this season is the first one that I've ever seen which states that a defensive player doesn't get his backcourt exception if the pass is tipped. I've never seen that before in twenty years of NFHS officiating and believe that it is a mistake.

OK I read the rule and I can see your dilemma. It does seem to be a conflicting bit of information. I can also see why people are splitting hairs over where the player initially jumped from - the frontcourt or backcourt, but I think it's just that - splitting hairs. I don't think there's anything there - just a poorly worded rule. The best argument I can come up with is that technically there is still no offense or defense because there is still no team control. Reading the POE in this year's Rule Book, it specifically states Team Control only applies for fouls by the throwing in team. It's not team control inbounds. Each team has a frontcourt and a backcourt, however, so each team can still create a backcourt violation. So neither team is the defense yet so you have to call the violation regardless of which team grabs the ball and comes down first foot in the frontcourt, second foot in the backcourt.

EDIT: Bob already said this in post #7 so I'm feeling vindicated

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Smitty

OK I read the rule and I can see your dilemma. It does seem to be a conflicting bit of information. I can also see why people are splitting hairs over where the player initially jumped from - the frontcourt or backcourt, but I think it's just that - splitting hairs. I don't think there's anything there - just a poorly worded rule. The best argument I can come up with is that technically there is still no offense or defense because there is still no team control. Reading the POE in this year's Rule Book, it specifically states Team Control only applies for fouls by the throwing in team. It's not team control inbounds. Each team has a frontcourt and a backcourt, however, so each team can still create a backcourt violation. So neither team is the defense yet so you have to call the violation regardless of which team grabs the ball and comes down first foot in the frontcourt, second foot in the backcourt.

EDIT: Bob already said this in post #7 so I'm feeling vindicated

Now look what Bob just wrote in post #30. That is consistent with what the NFHS rule has been for twenty years.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Now look what Bob just wrote in post #30. That is consistent with what the NFHS rule has been for twenty years.

Bob’s #30 post is specific to NCAAW, not NFHS. The NFHS rules are not the same. It seems pretty clear to me that in high school this is a violation.