How to handle end of game clock situation

[BillyMac]

I always have a mental, silent, nonvisible, count inside my head for the last several seconds of all periods, and I would use it in this situation. In the rare event that I didn't have such a count, I would never go back and try to figure out the count from memory.

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

SECTION 10 TIMING MISTAKES (ART. 1 The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.) ART. 2 . If the referee determines that the clock malfunctioned or was not started/stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official’s count or other official information may be used to make a correction.

Call my mental, silent, nonvisible, count inside my head an "official’s count", or if that doesn't work for some of you because it's not visible, then call it "other official information". It certainly was "observed" by me (mentally, silently, nonvisibly, inside my head).

If that still doesn't work for you then add a dash of "purpose and intent", not too much, just a dash, we don't want to overdo it.

Still not satisfied? Maybe stir in a little of this (although I prefer the flavor of the rulebook over the manual):

Originally Posted by AremRed

The NFHS Mechanics manual, page 11: "Remember, an officials count (backcourt, throw-in, etc.) may be used to correct an obvious timing error"

Etcetera (a number of unspecified additional items) is pretty open ended.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

We've had this discussion numerous times before on this site.
I've always advocated the following:
1. Only the Referee may correct a timing mistake. The Referee may take input from the umpire(s), but must make the final decision.
2. Once the throw-in is touched inbounds, it is over and any stoppage for a timing error now results in a POI throw-in. There are no do-overs under NFHS rules.
3. 2-7-9 lists the officials counts during the contest. Those are what may be used to correct an unnoticed timing mistake.
4. If an official notices that the clock did not properly start or has improperly stopped and does not wish to halt play immediately because a scoring playing is in progress, the official needs to start a visible count and continue it until either halting play for a correction or to signal that time has expired. Having this count be visible is important because it can be verified via video in the event of a complaint.
5. If the clock improperly starts prematurely, prior to the ball being touched inbounds, an official needs to notice and stop play immediately and before the ball is touched inbounds. The time can then be restored and the game resumed from where that the throw-in was located. If already touched, then POI is required and some small amount of time must be deducted for the inbounds touching.
6. If no visible counts were made while the clock was not properly running, then no correction can occur, other than a small deduction for a throw-in catch or touching. This is unfortunate, but officials can't make their best guess nor use non-visible counts which aren't part of 2-7-9. There does not exist a single NFHS ruling or Case Book play in which an official counts in his head and uses that for a correction.

I disagree that a visible count is required. Can it help you on video? Sure. I'm not really worried about saving my a..as much as getting it right at end of game. The video will play and people will be able to judge from it how much time went by etc. if I count to myself I will trust it and act accordingly. My arm doesn't need to move in my opinion. I don't visibly count 3 seconds in front Court. My determination of 3 counts just the same.

I agree with mostvelse.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I don't visibly count 3 seconds ...

(Great post. Maybe Post O' The Week.)

Nor do I, but I would use it in a New York minute to come up with definite knowledge in this situation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

(Great post. Maybe Post O' The Week.)

Nor do I, but I would use it in a New York minute to come up with definite knowledge in this situation.

If an official called a 3-second violation while the clock was improperly not running, it would be legitimate to remove three seconds from the clock. However, using partial 3-second counts which are mentally done puts the officiating crew on dangerous ground. Why? Because it cannot substantiated in any way and there is no way to distinguish a mental count from simply making up a number in one's head.
In this day and age, decisions need to be verifiable or officials will be accused of making stuff up. Don't put yourself in that situation and use visible counts.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If an official called a 3-second violation while the clock was improperly not running, it would be legitimate to remove three seconds from the clock. However, using partial 3-second counts which are mentally done puts the officiating crew on dangerous ground. Why? Because it cannot substantiated in any way and there is no way to distinguish a mental count from simply making up a number in one's head.
In this day and age, decisions need to be verifiable or officials will be accused of making stuff up. Don't put yourself in that situation and use visible counts.

The point is not a 3 second count. That is only mentioned because the arm doesn't need to swing. You need to be right in what you decide but don't be afraid to do the right thing. The film will show when the ball is touched etc. Have a little courage and do what you know is right instead of cya. If you know it's 2 seconds take it off. Regardless of whether your arm swings...

It certainly can be substantiated. The film will tell you how much time went off. I do agree with all other points.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Have a little courage and do what you know is right instead of cya.

Advocating that officials do what is right/fair instead of following the rules is subjective and therefore not proper. I would say have the courage to enforce the rules properly when things go sideways. Making up your own solutions to problems which arise is not the way to go.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

We've had this discussion numerous times before on this site.
I've always advocated the following:

6. If no visible counts were made while the clock was not properly running, then no correction can occur, other than a small deduction for a throw-in catch or touching. This is unfortunate, but officials can't make their best guess nor use non-visible counts which aren't part of 2-7-9. There does not exist a single NFHS ruling or Case Book play in which an official counts in his head and uses that for a correction.

I agree with everything you said except this. The correction rule also allows for "other information". That can be just about anything. If the official is counting, how cares if it is provable on video. I don't care about what is provable. I'm doing what is right and what is supportable by the rules.

As for whether a ruling or case exists allowing it, there isn't one saying you can't do it that way either.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

5. If the clock improperly starts prematurely, prior to the ball being touched inbounds, an official needs to notice and stop play immediately and before the ball is touched inbounds. The time can then be restored and the game resumed from where that the throw-in was located.

While I generally agree, I will offer the scenario where the throw-in is errant and a.) Going to be stolen or b.) Going to result in a throw-in violation. It can be very easy to see the running clock and blow it dead before realizing you just screwed the defense out of gaining possession. Yes, I've had this happen. Sure, it's the timer's fault and not yours, but nobody is going to see it that way.

In that instance, I'd advise blowing it dead after control is established, and subtracting the time allowed for the touch(es).

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Advocating that officials do what is right/fair instead of following the rules is subjective and therefore not proper. I would say have the courage to enforce the rules properly when things go sideways. Making up your own solutions to problems which arise is not the way to go.

The rules allow for "other information" as Camron noted. If an official has a count in his head he can use it. He or she should not make up the time but an arm doesnt have to be swinging. The tape will show if the official took off the right amount of time or not.

[UNIgiantslayers]

I'd like Rich, as an assignor, to weigh in on this. Any other assignors out there that would care to say if you'd support the no visible count time deduction?

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Advocating that officials do what is right/fair instead of following the rules is subjective and therefore not proper. I would say have the courage to enforce the rules properly when things go sideways. Making up your own solutions to problems which arise is not the way to go.

"Official's Count" (without the preamble adjective of visible), "Other official information," and the "etc." modifier.

It's like the rules editors are being vague to allow a little room for interpretation on this issue; they very purposefully chose not to write themselves into a corner.

I get that you disagree with all of us and that that's not going to change. But I would point out that on the 0-10 scale of loose constructionist to strict constructionist, you are an 11.

[CJP]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

5.0 seconds left on the clock
division line throw in
throw in completed into the team's front court
dribble to basket
subsequent shot
ball caroms off rim
still 5.0 seconds left on clock
Timer admits that the clock was never started
officials have no count or definite knowledge of time elapsed

What do you do? Do over? Or, go to rebound and finish from there?

I am getting with my partners and discussing how much time to remove from the clock. If there was no one visible count then we are going to do our best to establish a reasonable correction. Flight time of the ball from 20 feet would be nearly a second. A dribble and the shooting motion another 2 seconds. If a play was dead before a rebound was secured then I would go to the possession arrow at the POI.

A referee's duty is to correct obvious timing errors. We are only required to visibly count seconds during a throw-in, free-throw, backcourt, and closely guarded. You would think in this situation that the defense would be within 6 feet of the ball handler and the primary would be counting and this would be a straight forward fix.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

I'd like Rich, as an assignor, to weigh in on this. Any other assignors out there that would care to say if you'd support the no visible count time deduction?

I'm going to use whatever resources I can, including a count in my or my partner's head. I can't think of a single one of my supervisors who would have a problem with that.

[BigCat]

The "other information" can be the table officials. 2-13 or so. If we can't hear horn "consult table officials and if they ...agree..."
If I'm allowed to talk to them to get information why would I be prevented from using my own count in my head? I think it's pretty clear a visible count isnt required.

Now, as a practical matter...if it happens, whatever time you take off needs to be correct. The tape will show it. If you've taken the right amount of time off you're good. Counting in your head or visibly. If you're wrong on the amount of time/your count...whether your arm is moving or not isn't going to save you.

I personally think that if you know how much time should have come off the clock(not guessing) then take it off. Saying I can't use my own count in my head because it wasn't visible just throws it on the table/timer.., he or she screwed it up in the first place....certainly didn't have a visible count...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by CJP

If there was no one visible count then we are going to do our best to establish a reasonable correction. Flight time of the ball from 20 feet would be nearly a second. A dribble and the shooting motion another 2 seconds.

That is not a valid way to handle this.

You can't approximate that events must have taken at least X time and use that. That isn't information, that is a guess. You must have definite information....a count.