How to handle end of game clock situation

[CJP]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

5.0 seconds left on the clock
division line throw in
throw in completed into the team's front court
dribble to basket
subsequent shot
ball caroms off rim
still 5.0 seconds left on clock
Timer admits that the clock was never started
officials have no count or definite knowledge of time elapsed

What do you do? Do over? Or, go to rebound and finish from there?

I am getting with my partners and discussing how much time to remove from the clock. If there was no one visible count then we are going to do our best to establish a reasonable correction. Flight time of the ball from 20 feet would be nearly a second. A dribble and the shooting motion another 2 seconds. If a play was dead before a rebound was secured then I would go to the possession arrow at the POI.

A referee's duty is to correct obvious timing errors. We are only required to visibly count seconds during a throw-in, free-throw, backcourt, and closely guarded. You would think in this situation that the defense would be within 6 feet of the ball handler and the primary would be counting and this would be a straight forward fix.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by CJP

If there was no one visible count then we are going to do our best to establish a reasonable correction. Flight time of the ball from 20 feet would be nearly a second. A dribble and the shooting motion another 2 seconds.

That is not a valid way to handle this.

You can't approximate that events must have taken at least X time and use that. That isn't information, that is a guess. You must have definite information....a count.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That is not a valid way to handle this.

You can't approximate that events must have taken at least X time and use that. That isn't information, that is a guess. You must have definite information....a count.

Agree

[CJP]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That is not a valid way to handle this.

You can't approximate that events must have taken at least X time and use that. That isn't information, that is a guess. You must have definite information....a count.

If someone in the crew says they were counting, we will go with that. If everyone drops the ball then I don't think there is anything else you can do.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That is not a valid way to handle this.

You can't approximate that events must have taken at least X time and use that. That isn't information, that is a guess. You must have definite information....a count.

I heard a couple years ago at a college camp that you can count the dribbles to take off time. A dribble = ~1 second. Now I've never heard that from anyone else if that says anything about that advice's legitimacy.

[BigCat]

Mark T. D. Your take on all of this please...

[bucky]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I heard a couple years ago at a college camp that you can count the dribbles to take off time. A dribble = ~1 second. Now I've never heard that from anyone else if that says anything about that advice's legitimacy.

Absolutely not. Consider a high dribble versus a very low dribble. The time is not even close to being the same for each.

Originally Posted by bucky

Absolutely not. Consider a high dribble versus a very low dribble. The time is not even close to being the same for each.

Good point. So you think perhaps a high dribble is 1.2 seconds whereas a low dribble is 0.8? And a "normal" dribble is 1 second? I think you might be on to something here bucky.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I heard a couple years ago at a college camp that you can count the dribbles to take off time. A dribble = ~1 second. Now I've never heard that from anyone else if that says anything about that advice's legitimacy.

I may not do that, but I don't have a problem with that (rules wise). You're counting something. It may not be precise but it is definite. Many officials' actual counts are probably not any more precise.

[CJP]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I may not do that, but I don't have a problem with that (rules wise). You're counting something. It may not be precise but it is definite. Many officials' actual counts are probably not any more precise.

One dribble, one shot (start to release), ball flight (ideal velocity to the basket is 28 feet per second). Adding those three things up and I am taking 3 seconds off of the clock. I am happy you agree.

[UNIgiantslayers]

Originally Posted by CJP

One dribble, one shot (start to release), ball flight (ideal velocity to the basket is 28 feet per second). Adding those three things up and I am taking 3 seconds off of the clock. I am happy you agree.

Should any of this be in blue to indicate sarcasm? This seems pretty iffy, and I'd have a hard time defending it to a supervisor.

[CJP]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

Should any of this be in blue to indicate sarcasm? This seems pretty iffy, and I'd have a hard time defending it to a supervisor.

First of all lets get it straight that someone should have had a count. No one knows that we didn't except the three of us. If I am the supervisor and 3 of my officials where in this situation I would be more upset if they stood around looking like they don't know what to do before telling a coach that they THINK 3 seconds came off the clock so we will resume play with 2 seconds remaining. Things I would critique them on are how they handled the situation during and after the ruling. I would tell the coach that 3 seconds DID come off the clock and play will resume at the POI. In this case after the shot.

A referee's duty is to correct obvious timing errors. I am brave enough to offer my solution with nothing but grief in return. Maybe we can keep sitting around and argue about what is not in the rule book. What would you do?