How to handle end of game clock situation

[UNIgiantslayers]

I'd like Rich, as an assignor, to weigh in on this. Any other assignors out there that would care to say if you'd support the no visible count time deduction?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

I'd like Rich, as an assignor, to weigh in on this. Any other assignors out there that would care to say if you'd support the no visible count time deduction?

I'm going to use whatever resources I can, including a count in my or my partner's head. I can't think of a single one of my supervisors who would have a problem with that.

[BigCat]

The "other information" can be the table officials. 2-13 or so. If we can't hear horn "consult table officials and if they ...agree..."
If I'm allowed to talk to them to get information why would I be prevented from using my own count in my head? I think it's pretty clear a visible count isnt required.

Now, as a practical matter...if it happens, whatever time you take off needs to be correct. The tape will show it. If you've taken the right amount of time off you're good. Counting in your head or visibly. If you're wrong on the amount of time/your count...whether your arm is moving or not isn't going to save you.

I personally think that if you know how much time should have come off the clock(not guessing) then take it off. Saying I can't use my own count in my head because it wasn't visible just throws it on the table/timer.., he or she screwed it up in the first place....certainly didn't have a visible count...

[CJP]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

I'd like Rich, as an assignor, to weigh in on this. Any other assignors out there that would care to say if you'd support the no visible count time deduction?

You can't go to the locker room and use your cell phone to ask your assignor what to do. If you are the referee in this case, step up and make the correction. What do you do?

[UNIgiantslayers]

Easy, sparky. First of all, this doesn't happen in my game as the R because I go to the table in any short time remaining situation and tell them to make sure they wait until the chop to start the clock. This ensures they're paying attention to the time. Second of all, if I don't have a count I'm certainly not going with some "1 high dribble = 1.2 seconds, 1 quick dribble = .75 seconds." If none of us had a count, I'm getting the coaches together and telling them we have no definitive knowledge so we're going to the last known time. After this discussion, I emailed my supervisor and asked him what he could support in this situation. I'll let you know what he says but I'm 100% certain I'm not getting post season games if I try to use some whacky formula for ascertaining the amount of elapsed time.

Feel free to use the whacky dribble/shot timeline, but if I'm on that crew, you're going on my blocked partners list because that is not something I could get behind when trying to explain to a coach or supervisor.

[CJP]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

Easy, sparky. First of all, this doesn't happen in my game as the R because I go to the table in any short time remaining situation and tell them to make sure they wait until the chop to start the clock. This ensures they're paying attention to the time. Second of all, if I don't have a count I'm certainly not going with some "1 high dribble = 1.2 seconds, 1 quick dribble = .75 seconds." If none of us had a count, I'm getting the coaches together and telling them we have no definitive knowledge so we're going to the last known time. After this discussion, I emailed my supervisor and asked him what he could support in this situation. I'll let you know what he says but I'm 100% certain I'm not getting post season games if I try to use some whacky formula for ascertaining the amount of elapsed time.

Feel free to use the whacky dribble/shot timeline, but if I'm on that crew, you're going on my blocked partners list because that is not something I could get behind when trying to explain to a coach or supervisor.

To clarify, you are going to leave 5 seconds on the clock after a dribble, shot, and a rebound take place?

[Valley Man]

Originally Posted by CJP

To clarify, you are going to leave 5 seconds on the clock after a dribble, shot, and a rebound take place?

Supported by the little book if no one has DEFINITIVE KNOWLEDGE of how much time has elapsed.

[CJP]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

Supported by the little book if no one has DEFINITIVE KNOWLEDGE of how much time has elapsed.

Art 1 of this rule reads that a correction can be made when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. In this case it is such a short window that I have definite information of a dribble and a shot. If the window was much larger and there where many dribbles and passes involved then I would say we lost the ability to make a correction.

Art 2 says other official information maybe used to make a correction. So your DEFINITIVE KNOWLEDGE thinking is not going to always hold up.

[Zoochy]

If you ARE NOT doing a visible count. Nor keeping a non-visible count. Then are you really counting the number of dribbles a player is taking?
If there is 5 seconds on the clock when a team makes a throw-in, then I will be performing a silent count. Once I get to 5 (in my head) I will try to take a peak at the clock to see why the horn has not sounded. If it still reads 5 seconds I will sound the whistle and say game is over.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

Supported by the little book if no one has DEFINITIVE KNOWLEDGE of how much time has elapsed.

I personally have definite knowledge that some time between 0-5 seconds may have elapsed. It's definitely NOT 0. I may be 100% confident that AT LEAST 1 second elapsed but 90% certain that 1.5 seconds did. In that case remove the amount of time that we are 100% confident DID elapse and put the ball in play where we stopped action.

I certainly think it's foolish if a player takes a dribble and puts up a shot and the clock doesn't start that the logic uses is "since we don't know HOW much time elapsed we won't remove ANY time."

[CJP]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

Easy, sparky. First of all, this doesn't happen in my game as the R because I go to the table in any short time remaining situation and tell them to make sure they wait until the chop to start the clock. This ensures they're paying attention to the time. Second of all, if I don't have a count I'm certainly not going with some "1 high dribble = 1.2 seconds, 1 quick dribble = .75 seconds." If none of us had a count, I'm getting the coaches together and telling them we have no definitive knowledge so we're going to the last known time. After this discussion, I emailed my supervisor and asked him what he could support in this situation. I'll let you know what he says but I'm 100% certain I'm not getting post season games if I try to use some whacky formula for ascertaining the amount of elapsed time.

Feel free to use the whacky dribble/shot timeline, but if I'm on that crew, you're going on my blocked partners list because that is not something I could get behind when trying to explain to a coach or supervisor.

It is an obvious timing error. Is leaving 5 seconds on the clock really correcting it? I think this is more of a test of your abilities to handle the situation. If both coaches are okay with leaving 5 seconds on the clock then you are the man, especially if there where points scored; now the other team has a full 5 seconds to get up the floor and score.