Ball off Face!

[so cal lurker]

So what would the proper call be here?

[Robert E. Harrison]

Illegal use of opponent's face. Unsporting Technical on thrower.

[Dale3]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

So what would the proper call be here?

I'd like to see a technical foul on A1 for an "unsporting foul". If this is intentional, which it clearly looks to be, its a no brainier tech.

2 shots and the ball for Red (NFHS).

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That assumes that the official giving the T even saw the play. It is very possible he is looking at the other 8 players on the floor or some other match-up that he would not have seen this play. So I do not blame him for this situation at all.

Peace

I agree that he has other primary responsibilities, but if you look at the first angle, it appears that this is a 2 man crew. The other 6 of the other 8 players are all below the free throw line, and it even appears that the trail is looking through the court and would have had some view of what just occurred.

Originally Posted by Welpe

If the Trail has more than a peripheral look at that play then he's not doing his job officiating the rest of the court. Potentially missing something isn't carte blanche for the HC to say whatever he wants.

Again, based on the first angle show, I think the trail can do his job while still having a decent look at what happened.

I'm not saying the coach can do/say whatever he wants, but I think you have to give him a little leeway given the situation. Again, we don't know what was said exactly. Maybe there were some magic word expressed. I just think it was a quick trigger given the play.

[LRZ]

It appears to me as if the L was looking right at the two players involved. My conjecture is that it caught him off-guard and he just didn't react. But he might have bought himself some time if, realizing that something troublesome had occurred, he went to his partner to talk it over briefly. One of those "partner, just nod your head as I'm talking to you" conversations.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I agree that he has other primary responsibilities, but if you look at the first angle, it appears that this is a 2 man crew. The other 6 of the other 8 players are all below the free throw line, and it even appears that the trail is looking through the court and would have had some view of what just occurred.

Even if that is the case, it is still not something the Trail should be eyeballing that hard. He might have seen the ball contact the player, but did not see how measured the thrower was on hitting the opponent. So having him come in and making a call is kind of a stretch. The official standing right there administering the throw-in is really responsible for this call here.

Peace

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Even if that is the case, it is still not something the Trail should be eyeballing that hard. He might have seen the ball contact the player, but did not see how measured the thrower was on hitting the opponent. So having him come in and making a call is kind of a stretch. The official standing right there administering the throw-in is really responsible for this call here.

Peace

I am not advocating for the Trail to come in and make a call here. I'm just saying that if the trail caught any glimpse of what happened, and he knows his partner jacked this up, that he give the coach a little chance to speak his mind. I'm not saying that "anything goes" when the coach starts ranting, but there are times when something happens that gets blatantly missed, and if that's the case, within reasonable limits, let the coach say his piece, and then move on.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I am not advocating for the Trail to come in and make a call here. I'm just saying that if the trail caught any glimpse of what happened, and he knows his partner jacked this up, that he give the coach a little chance to speak his mind. I'm not saying that "anything goes" when the coach starts ranting, but there are times when something happens that gets blatantly missed, and if that's the case, within reasonable limits, let the coach say his piece, and then move on.

He might have been surprised by what happened or did not know the entire story. And that does not give the coach the right to do whatever after that point of view. And if anything you are yelling at me when it was not my call or play to rule on. Just the fact he is yelling at me might be part of the reason he gets a T. If he does not know who to yell at, then that is not my problem. But he does not get a pass because he is saying something to me in a disrespectful way. Usually I give coaches a chance to change course, but if he doesn't, then so be it and get a T like any other time.

Peace

[deecee]

I have a flagrant foul here. I can see instances where a kid falling out of bounds may "hit" an opponents face and it be a no call, however this is completely unnecessary and white is done in my game.

[HokiePaul]

My thoughts on this (which is definitely 2 man as the trail is opposite and mirroring the chop clock):

This is not as obvious call for the lead in real time. In 2 man especially, the focus is on the on-ball defender and thrower but you also have to watch other players nearby.

There is a offensive player making a cut around the free throw line who could theoretically be the intended target. Unless you are focused completely on the thrower (as we are when we watch the video), it would be hard to know whether this was intentional or accidental.

After watching the video, I'm 98% sure that the player threw the ball at the defender and I'd be confident to call an unsporting T. As the lead in 2-man, I'd probably be closer to 50/50 in the moment

If this happened to me, I would call the out of bounds and then go immediately to my partner to see whether or not he had an opinion e.g. "Ball hit the defender square in the face -- did you see anything to suggest that this the thrower did this intentionally?" or "Ball hit the defender square in the face -- I believe it was intentional by the thrower but wanted to check to see if you saw it differently before I issue a T".

Even if we don't call a T we show both coaches and the players that we are on notice for any more shenanigans.

[Robmoz]

Originally Posted by deecee

I have a flagrant foul here. I can see instances where a kid falling out of bounds may "hit" an opponents face and it be a no call, however this is completely unnecessary and white is done in my game.

+1

I could easily go with a flagrant on this one.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

He might have been surprised by what happened or did not know the entire story. And that does not give the coach the right to do whatever after that point of view. And if anything you are yelling at me when it was not my call or play to rule on. Just the fact he is yelling at me might be part of the reason he gets a T. If he does not know who to yell at, then that is not my problem. But he does not get a pass because he is saying something to me in a disrespectful way. Usually I give coaches a chance to change course, but if he doesn't, then so be it and get a T like any other time.

Peace

Again, I'm not saying the coach gets a free pass. I just felt that in this situation, given what had just happened, it was an awfully quick trigger. You could tell the coach was upset, but he didn't seem to be yelling, or belligerent. I just think that given the situation, if the official that called the T had any idea of what had just happened, the coach deserved a little leeway.

Heck, since I wasn't there to hear exactly what was said, it's hard to say that I wouldn't have given him a T as well.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

Again, I'm not saying the coach gets a free pass. I just felt that in this situation, given what had just happened, it was an awfully quick trigger. You could tell the coach was upset, but he didn't seem to be yelling, or belligerent. I just think that given the situation, if the official that called the T had any idea of what had just happened, the coach deserved a little leeway.

Heck, since I wasn't there to hear exactly what was said, it's hard to say that I wouldn't have given him a T as well.

I have said this before and I will say this again.

"When you roll the dice, you might just crap out." Well the coach crapped out and might have gotten a pass with a different official or situation. And unless you really know what was said, then we are speculating if things were to be different.

Peace

[Adam]

I think it's either a technical foul for negligence (there is a cutter coming through at that moment, and the grassy knoll angle makes it impossible to tell if the thrower was staring at the defender or at the cutter), or a flagrant foul for intentionally throwing at the opponent's face.

Oh, and a flop.

[MelbRef]

I had a similar situation that has helped me prepare for this conduct.

It was a GV game, and an end-line throw-in similar to the situation in this thread video.

In my case, when I got to a 4 count, the in-bounder threw the ball very hard at the upper torso of the defender but missed, and the ball went up court and out of bounds.

It caught me somewhat off-guard, and I talked to the player at that moment.
I later considered what I would do in the future if the ball had hit the opponent in the upper torso (vs the head, or the legs).

For this video, I have a flagrant technical, no hesitation.