2 or 3 point field goal?

[BillyMac]

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The
ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in
the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the
two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING:
In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense
and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three
points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line.
In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two point
area.

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it
hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through
the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and
below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are
scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

So if a try hits a defender inside the arc (with the try, by definition, ending), it's only two points, but if a pass (thrown ball) hits a defender inside the arc, it's three points?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So if a try hits a defender inside the arc (with the try, by definition, ending), it's only two points, but if a pass (thrown ball) hits a defender inside the arc, it's three points?

A try is also a thrown ball, as noted above multiple times.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A try is also a thrown ball, as noted above multiple times.

A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three
points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal
when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or
attempting to throw for goal.

In order for a thrown ball to be a try, in the official’s judgment, doesn't the thrower have to be attempting to throw for goal?

Can't a thrown ball also be a pass?

Isn't it true that all trys are thrown balls but not all thrown balls are trys?

So, is this true: If a try hits a defender inside the arc, it's only two points, but if a pass hits a defender inside the arc, it's three points?

[just another ref]

Here is my assessment of the situation, in a nutshell.

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it
hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through
the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and
below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are
scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

These three words are the key. If the ball is below the rim and clearly will stay below without the deflection, no way can it be a 3.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Here is my assessment of the situation, in a nutshell.

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it
hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through
the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and
below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are
scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

These three words are the key. If the ball is below the rim and clearly will stay below without the deflection, no way can it be a 3.

Agree.

No mention (below) regarding above, or below, the ring. Also, there is no mention regarding whether the official judges this throw to be a try, or to not be a try. So why does this one count three points? If it's simply a three point try that gets tipped by a defender below the arc (a common occurrence) then I get the three points, but what if this was a pass, that deflected off a defender's hand?

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: B1 who is in the two-point area; The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: Three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line.

5-2 2 Scoring: Art. 1 A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball
that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal
from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.
See 4-5-4.

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree.

No mention (below) regarding above, or below, the ring. Also, there is no mention regarding whether the official judges this throw to be a try, or to not be a try. So why does this one count three points? If it's simply a three point try that gets tipped by a defender below the arc (a common occurrence) then I get the three points, but what if this was a pass, that deflected off a defender's hand?

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: B1 who is in the two-point area; The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: Three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line.

5-2 2 Scoring: Art. 1 A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball
that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal
from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.
See 4-5-4.

I would imagine that 5.2.1 was intended to address a ball that is tipped as it is released to make clear that the shot blocker getting a finger on the ball does not convert it to a 2. And 4.41.4 was intended to make clear that once it is an obvious miss, we don't covert the fluke/own goal to a 3. IMHO, you need to look at context, and not assume these are written with the clinical precision of a contract lawyer. Keep it simple: If the ball is below the rim (and not still going up), rely on 4.41.4 and give them the 2. Don't try to be the smartest guy in the gym with an argument they get three just because the cases are imprecise.

Take it fir what it's worth from the soccer ref/BB dad.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

I would imagine that 5.2.1 was intended to address a ball that is tipped as it is released to make clear that the shot blocker getting a finger on the ball does not convert it to a 2. And 4.41.4 was intended to make clear that once it is an obvious miss, we don't covert the fluke/own goal to a 3.

Agree. I just wish that the rule, as written, and the casebook plays, as written, reconciled with each other, and clearly described your common sense take on these situations.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Based on the video, I have a 3. The casebook is clear. It does not tell us how bad the pass or throw at the basket has to be.

Peace

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Well I'll be darned. I never would have figured the NCAA interpretation is different than the NFHS one.

I learn something new every day.

So the OP video is a 3 in NFHS and a 2 in NCAA.

Originally Posted by WreckRef

Thanks to all who replied.

So for NFHS, 3 points.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree. I just wish that the rule, as written, and the casebook plays, as written, reconciled with each other, and clearly described your common sense take on these situations.

They are consistent.

When the ball is released on a trajectory that may or may not be a 3, we are to assume that the thrower is attempting to put it in the basket...they took that judgement away from us.

However, they did not change the rule on who a try ends....when it is clear that it can't go it. Any try or apparent try is over and a ball that goes in due to a deflection after that is only a 2. (Case 4.41.4B)

[bob jenkins]

Had a play related to this in a college game today. A1, behind the arc, looked to me to be throwing a lob pass to post player A2. So, I didn't give the preliminary "3" signal. The ball went in. I signalled the three.

Turns out, she just has a very strange shooting motion and it was a try all along.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... they did not change the rule on who a try ends....when it is clear that it can't go it. Any try or apparent try is over and a ball that goes in due to a deflection after that is only a 2. (Case 4.41.4B)

Apparent try? How does the NFHS define that?

See case play below. Nowhere in the play does it say that this is a try, nor that it is to be treated as a try. Note the rule (below) that states that it can be a "thrown ball", the word "or" indicating that it my be something other than a try, or a tap, that still counts as three even if touched by a defensive player inside the arc.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: B1 who is in the two-point area; The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: Three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line.

5-2 2 Scoring: Art. 1 A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball
that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal
from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.
See 4-5-4.

I don't want to count three points for a pass from behind the arc that deflects off the shoulder of a defensive player inside the arc and goes in the basket, but I believe that Rule 5-2-2, and Casebook play 5.2.1 SITUATION C, indicate otherwise.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Apparent try? How does the NFHS define that?

See case play below. Nowhere in the play does it say that this is a try, nor that it is to be treated as a try. Note the rule (below) that states that it can be a "thrown ball", the word "or" indicating that it my be something other than a try, or a tap, that still counts as three even if touched by a defensive player inside the arc.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: B1 who is in the two-point area; The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: Three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line.

5-2 2 Scoring: Art. 1 A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball
that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal
from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.
See 4-5-4.

I don't want to count three points for a pass from behind the arc that deflects off the shoulder of a defensive player inside the arc and goes in the basket, but I believe that Rule 5-2-2, and Casebook play 5.2.1 SITUATION C, indicate otherwise.

5.2.1 is talking about a defender trying to block a 3-point shot/throw such that the defender's foot is in the 2-point area. Don't expand it beyond the intended case. Case plays are not usually meant to be broad and general but point examples.

5-2-2, again, is talking about the general case of a ball throw without considering other complications.

We have 4.41.4B that clarifies that when it no longer has a chance to go in as thrown, it reverts back to a 2 if anyone else diverts the ball into the basket.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

5.2.1 is talking about a defender trying to block a 3-point shot/throw such that the defender's foot is in the 2-point area. Don't expand it beyond the intended case. Case plays are not usually meant to be broad and general but point examples. 5-2-2, again, is talking about the general case of a ball throw without considering other complications. We have 4.41.4B that clarifies that when it no longer has a chance to go in as thrown, it reverts back to a 2 if anyone else diverts the ball into the basket.

Sounds logical, and well thought out, with a lot of common basketball officiating sense.

But that not what these citations state.

5.2.1 may not be talking about a defender trying to block a 3-point shot such that the defender's foot is in the 2-point area. It may be talking about a pass from behind the three point arc. A thrown ball can be a shot (try), a tap (same as a try accept regarding 0.3 seconds), or a pass.

And I get that case plays are not usually meant to be general, which is why I've gone to the actual rule that states that it can be a "thrown ball", which can be a shot (try), a tap (same as a try accept regarding 0.3 seconds), or a pass.

Most of us (hopefully, the rule changed from it's original form (had to be a try) when the arc was first painted on the court) are counting a wayward alley oop pass from behind the arc that goes in as three points. If that same alley oop ball touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, or an official, it only counts two points, by rule. But the rule doesn't say anything about the same alley oop pass touching a defender. That only leaves one choice, three points.

I don't like that choice, but that's what the rule says.

In a real game, if a pass from behind the arc deflects off the shoulder of a defensive player inside the arc and goes in the basket, I'm probably counting it as a two. I can sell that to players, coaches, fans, and probably my partner, but that's not what the actual rule says.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sounds logical, and well thought out, with a lot of common basketball officiating sense.

But that not what these citations state.

5.2.1 may not be talking about a defender trying to block a 3-point shot such that the defender's foot is in the 2-point area. It may be talking about a pass from behind the three point arc. A thrown ball can be a shot (try), a tap (same as a try accept regarding 0.3 seconds), or a pass.

And I get that case plays are not usually meant to be general, which is why I've gone to the actual rule that states that it can be a "thrown ball", which can be a shot (try), a tap (same as a try accept regarding 0.3 seconds), or a pass.

We just have to use our knowledge of the history and the discussions of why these case plays were created to know where it is intended to be applied.

The 3-point throw was all about judging the intent of the shooter when the throw was potentially a 3. It was never about turning an obvious pass that had no chance of going in into a 3.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

We just have to use our knowledge of the history ...

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The 3-point throw was all about judging the intent of the shooter when the throw was potentially a 3.

Yes, back when the paint was still wet after the arc was painted on the court for the first time. Back then it had to be a try. That changed to allow a wayward alley oop pass from behind the arc to count as three, taking any judgment (thankfully, at the time of the change) away from the official.

I believe that the present rule is poorly written. Can we agree on that?

[BillyMac]

I love this video, and the thread discussion that it generated, so let's see it again:

Does that count as 2 or 3?