2 or 3 point field goal?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sounds logical, and well thought out, with a lot of common basketball officiating sense.

But that not what these citations state.

5.2.1 may not be talking about a defender trying to block a 3-point shot such that the defender's foot is in the 2-point area. It may be talking about a pass from behind the three point arc. A thrown ball can be a shot (try), a tap (same as a try accept regarding 0.3 seconds), or a pass.

And I get that case plays are not usually meant to be general, which is why I've gone to the actual rule that states that it can be a "thrown ball", which can be a shot (try), a tap (same as a try accept regarding 0.3 seconds), or a pass.

We just have to use our knowledge of the history and the discussions of why these case plays were created to know where it is intended to be applied.

The 3-point throw was all about judging the intent of the shooter when the throw was potentially a 3. It was never about turning an obvious pass that had no chance of going in into a 3.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

We just have to use our knowledge of the history ...

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The 3-point throw was all about judging the intent of the shooter when the throw was potentially a 3.

Yes, back when the paint was still wet after the arc was painted on the court for the first time. Back then it had to be a try. That changed to allow a wayward alley oop pass from behind the arc to count as three, taking any judgment (thankfully, at the time of the change) away from the official.

I believe that the present rule is poorly written. Can we agree on that?

[BillyMac]

I love this video, and the thread discussion that it generated, so let's see it again:

Does that count as 2 or 3?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Does that count as 2 or 3?

5-2 2 Scoring: Art. 1 A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball
that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal
from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

Is this a thrown ball? Yes.

Is the thrown ball successful? Yes.

Is the ball thrown from behind the three point arc? Yes.

Does the thrown ball touch the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official? No.

Does this count as three points? Yes.

Should it count as three points? My opinion, rule is poorly written, no.

I would love to see this same play, but with the ball deflecting off the head of a defensive player. Count that as three and the official will need a police escort out to his car after the game.

[just another ref]

Billy, read the thing on page 8 about intent and purpose of the rules and move on.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Billy, read the thing on page 8 about intent and purpose of the rules and move on.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Should it count as three points? My opinion, rule is poorly written, no. I would love to see this same play, but with the ball deflecting off the head of a defensive player. Count that as three and the official will need a police escort out to his car after the game.

What's worse than an unruly mob of Swiss farmers carrying lit torches and pitchforks?

An unruly mob basketball officials carrying lit torches and pitchforks.

Poorly written rule. I'll hang my hat on intent and purpose. But, still a poorly written rule.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In a real game, if a pass from behind the arc deflects off the shoulder of a defensive player inside the arc and goes in the basket, I'm probably counting it as a two. I can sell that to players, coaches, fans, and probably my partner ...

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Does that count as 2 or 3?

And I still love WreckRef's video. You can't take that away from me.

[bucky]

Just finished watching Blazing Saddles so I must, I must add my thoughts.

In my judgement, the player is making a pass, not a throw for goal. (Is there anyone who thinks the player is shooting a shot? If the player was fouled would anyone here have them in the act of shooting? And if so, would anyone here give them a chance at a 4-point play? My guess is "no" to all those questions.)

Ergo, Rule 4 Section 41 and Rule 5 Section 2 allow me to judge that 2 points are awarded. If anyone judges that the player was shooting, then obviously award 3 points.

BillyMac, you indicated "Most of us (hopefully, the rule changed from it's original form (had to be a try) when the arc was first painted on the court) are counting a wayward alley oop pass from behind the arc that goes in as three points. If that same alley oop ball touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, or an official, it only counts two points, by rule. But the rule doesn't say anything about the same alley oop pass touching a defender. That only leaves one choice, three points.

It looks as if you accidentally left out a portion of the rule (although you quoted the entire rule correctly in a different post). You appear to be indicating that the rule mentions a teammate but nothing about a defender. Below is the rule and I highlighted some wording that I feel includes a defensive player:

5-2 2 Scoring: Art. 1 A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

They listed some specific items (floor, teammate, official) but they also have "or any other goal" . Would not the defensive deflection in the OP be part of "any other goal from the field"?

(Maybe I am advocating on your behalf. I do not see how 3 points could ever be awarded in the OP unless someone possibly thought the player was shooting and in that case, I would hate to see their judgement applied to any other part of the game)

Time for bed, I must, I must.