Double Dribble or Out-of-Bounds?

[TSYouthSports]

Originally Posted by Rock'nRef

Thanks for the reply but can you point out where it states this in the rule book? As far as I read, a dribble begins when the ball is intentionally pushed or batted "to" the floor. I guess that we can assume that "to" implies that the ball actually reached the floor.

A dribble would have to constitute returning to the dribbler. Otherwise a bounce pass (ball is intentionally pushed to the floor) would be considered a dribble.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rock'nRef

Thanks for the reply but can you point out where it states this in the rule book? As far as I read, a dribble begins when the ball is intentionally pushed or batted "to" the floor. I guess that we can assume that "to" implies that the ball actually reached the floor.

Originally Posted by TSYouthSports

A dribble would have to constitute returning to the dribbler. Otherwise a bounce pass (ball is intentionally pushed to the floor) would be considered a dribble.

Rock'nRef is correct.

While we may wait to see where it goes, the dribble does begin when it leaves the hand being pushed the floor.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by TSYouthSports

A dribble would have to constitute returning to the dribbler. Otherwise a bounce pass (ball is intentionally pushed to the floor) would be considered a dribble.

Incorrect. There is an NFHS Case Play which states that the player does not have to touch the ball again.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by TSYouthSports

A dribble would have to constitute returning to the dribbler. Otherwise a bounce pass (ball is intentionally pushed to the floor) would be considered a dribble.

Did TSYouthSports mean an illegal dribble?

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Incorrect. There is an NFHS Case Play which states that the player does not have to touch the ball again.

I would love to see this interpretation, otherwise, how could an official judge the difference between the start of another (illegal) dribble, and the start of a bounce pass?

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

[just another ref]

4.15.4 Situation A

When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended, and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4.15.4 Situation A When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended, and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.

Keep in mind that palming/carrying can be either an illegal dribble violation (usually by a stationary dribbler (no movement of pivot foot)), or a travel violation (moving pivot foot while holding (palming/carrying) the ball), depending on the details.

4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid
guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball
from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an
attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the
dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.
(9-5)

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Keep in mind that palming/carrying can be either an illegal dribble violation (usually by a stationary dribbler (no movement of pivot foot)), or a travel violation (moving pivot foot while holding (palming/carrying) the ball), depending on the details.

4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid
guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball
from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an
attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the
dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.
(9-5)

What's your point?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Did TSYouthSports mean an illegal dribble?



I would love to see this interpretation, otherwise, how could an official judge the difference between the start of another (illegal) dribble, and the start of a bounce pass?

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

There is another play where a player, after ending a dribble, throws the ball and it hits an official. Ruling is double dribble IF player first to touch it. Your play above and this play do not look like dribbles. Not a typical push down to the floor. Looks like pass so they dont immediately say double dribble. Only if player touches it first is it double.

In the palm/carry play it's double when player pushes it to the floor. I reconcile these by saying if what the player does after ending his first dribble...looks like a dribble....then it is a dribble. Violation without touching again. If what he does after he ends the dribble looks like something else then i will wait to see what happens. If he's first to touch, violation.

I will want to be sure that what the player is doing is dribbling again but if he pushes ball straight down or close to him with no one else around i will call that a dribble without him actually touching it again.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BigCat

There is another play where a player, after ending a dribble, throws the ball and it hits an official. Ruling is double dribble IF player first to touch it. Your play above and this play do not look like dribbles. Not a typical push down to the floor. Looks like pass so they dont immediately say double dribble. Only if player touches it first is it double.

In the palm/carry play it's double when player pushes it to the floor. I reconcile these by saying if what the player does after ending his first dribble...looks like a dribble....then it is a dribble. Violation without touching again. If what he does after he ends the dribble looks like something else then i will wait to see what happens. If he's first to touch, violation.

I will want to be sure that what the player is doing is dribbling again but if he pushes ball straight down or close to him with no one else around i will call that a dribble without him actually touching it again.

Agree.

[Shooter14]

If a player dribbles for the 2nd time without the ball returning to his hands and you don't call it double dribble, you won't hear a word from an assigner and you can always say your judgement was it was not a dribble.

But mess it up the other way and call a double dribble and be wrong you will most definitely hear about it.

Again, to me this is simple and it is being made complicated. I'm never going to call a double dribble if the 2nd dribble doesn't return to the hands, ever!

[Shooter14]

I read in another thread someone said we shouldn't think about intent while applying the rules. How are we to know with 100% certainty that a 2nd dribble attempt is not a pass, or a drop of the ball or whatever.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Shooter14

If a player dribbles for the 2nd time without the ball returning to his hands and you don't call it double dribble, you won't hear a word from an assigner and you can always say your judgement was it was not a dribble.

But mess it up the other way and call a double dribble and be wrong you will most definitely hear about it.

Again, to me this is simple and it is being made complicated. I'm never going to call a double dribble if the 2nd dribble doesn't return to the hands, ever!

By your argument, you could never be wrong...just say you judged it to be a dribble.

Waiting to see what happens next to see of you can somehow avoid blowing the whistle is not refereeing.