The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 18, 2016, 10:06am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 26
Double Dribble or Out-of-Bounds?

Had this happen in a game this week and am hoping for a clear answer to take to my chapter meeting tonight:
Player A1 is in front court, ends dribble and is trapped by two defenders. Player A1 panics and attempts to dribble around defender. However, as player A1 begins dribble, the ball hits the defender's foot and goes out of bounds (it clearly was not an intentional attempt to throw it off of the defender) . My thought was that the defense should be awarded here for good play. The real question to me is determining what started the 2nd dribble attempt. Was it when the ball left player A1's hand or would the ball have had to hit the floor after leaving A1's hand to be considered a dribble? Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 19, 2016, 03:15pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 75
It's not a double dribble until the second dribble attempt hits the floor and returns to the dribbler's hands.

If the second "dribble" attempt hit the defenders foot, then double dribble rules are off as they could have picked it right back up and started dribbling again because that could be treated the same as interrupted dribble.

I know that's right in my head, but sure I didn't use correct wording/terms/verbage. So.....Waiting for someone to tell me where/why I'm wrong. ha.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 19, 2016, 04:44pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock'nRef View Post
Had this happen in a game this week and am hoping for a clear answer to take to my chapter meeting tonight:
Player A1 is in front court, ends dribble and is trapped by two defenders. Player A1 panics and attempts to dribble around defender. However, as player A1 begins dribble, the ball hits the defender's foot and goes out of bounds (it clearly was not an intentional attempt to throw it off of the defender) . My thought was that the defense should be awarded here for good play. The real question to me is determining what started the 2nd dribble attempt. Was it when the ball left player A1's hand or would the ball have had to hit the floor after leaving A1's hand to be considered a dribble? Thanks
To me, this is out of bounds on team B. I know you said it was obvious they weren't trying to throw it off their foot, but that's what happened. The ball never hit the floor. The result is the same as throwing it off the opponent's foot. Ball to team A.

Don't overthink this stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 19, 2016, 05:38pm
Moderator M-800
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock'nRef View Post
(it clearly was not an intentional attempt to throw it off of the defender)
Irrelevant. Why are we worried about motives here... call what happens, not what the players may have meant to happen.


Quote:
My thought was that the defense should be awarded here for good play.
This "thought" normally gets us in trouble. We should not be rewarding good play or penalizing bad play. Instead, we should be adjudicating what we see in accordance with the rules.
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'”

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 20, 2016, 05:48pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,226
Look up the definition of a dribble in Rule 4.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 21, 2016, 07:47am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooter14 View Post
It's not a double dribble until the second dribble attempt hits the floor and returns to the dribbler's hands.
Thanks for the reply but can you point out where it states this in the rule book? As far as I read, a dribble begins when the ball is intentionally pushed or batted "to" the floor. I guess that we can assume that "to" implies that the ball actually reached the floor.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 21, 2016, 08:52am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock'nRef View Post
Thanks for the reply but can you point out where it states this in the rule book? As far as I read, a dribble begins when the ball is intentionally pushed or batted "to" the floor. I guess that we can assume that "to" implies that the ball actually reached the floor.
A dribble would have to constitute returning to the dribbler. Otherwise a bounce pass (ball is intentionally pushed to the floor) would be considered a dribble.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 21, 2016, 03:20pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock'nRef View Post
Thanks for the reply but can you point out where it states this in the rule book? As far as I read, a dribble begins when the ball is intentionally pushed or batted "to" the floor. I guess that we can assume that "to" implies that the ball actually reached the floor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSYouthSports View Post
A dribble would have to constitute returning to the dribbler. Otherwise a bounce pass (ball is intentionally pushed to the floor) would be considered a dribble.
Rock'nRef is correct.

While we may wait to see where it goes, the dribble does begin when it leaves the hand being pushed the floor.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 21, 2016, 06:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSYouthSports View Post
A dribble would have to constitute returning to the dribbler. Otherwise a bounce pass (ball is intentionally pushed to the floor) would be considered a dribble.
Incorrect. There is an NFHS Case Play which states that the player does not have to touch the ball again.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 21, 2016, 11:30pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 16,370
Bounce Pass ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSYouthSports View Post
A dribble would have to constitute returning to the dribbler. Otherwise a bounce pass (ball is intentionally pushed to the floor) would be considered a dribble.
Did TSYouthSports mean an illegal dribble?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Incorrect. There is an NFHS Case Play which states that the player does not have to touch the ball again.
I would love to see this interpretation, otherwise, how could an official judge the difference between the start of another (illegal) dribble, and the start of a bounce pass?

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board.
(4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)
__________________
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Dec 21, 2016 at 11:49pm.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 22, 2016, 01:34am
We don't rent pigs
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,597
4.15.4 Situation A

When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended, and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


Lonesome Dove
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 22, 2016, 07:18am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 16,370
Palming/Carrying ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
4.15.4 Situation A When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended, and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.
Keep in mind that palming/carrying can be either an illegal dribble violation (usually by a stationary dribbler (no movement of pivot foot)), or a travel violation (moving pivot foot while holding (palming/carrying) the ball), depending on the details.

4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid
guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball
from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an
attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the
dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.
(9-5)
__________________
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Dec 22, 2016 at 07:22am.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 22, 2016, 01:15pm
We don't rent pigs
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,597
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Keep in mind that palming/carrying can be either an illegal dribble violation (usually by a stationary dribbler (no movement of pivot foot)), or a travel violation (moving pivot foot while holding (palming/carrying) the ball), depending on the details.

4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid
guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball
from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an
attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the
dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.
(9-5)
What's your point?
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


Lonesome Dove
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 22, 2016, 02:58pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,700
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Did TSYouthSports mean an illegal dribble?



I would love to see this interpretation, otherwise, how could an official judge the difference between the start of another (illegal) dribble, and the start of a bounce pass?

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board.
(4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)
There is another play where a player, after ending a dribble, throws the ball and it hits an official. Ruling is double dribble IF player first to touch it. Your play above and this play do not look like dribbles. Not a typical push down to the floor. Looks like pass so they dont immediately say double dribble. Only if player touches it first is it double.

In the palm/carry play it's double when player pushes it to the floor. I reconcile these by saying if what the player does after ending his first dribble...looks like a dribble....then it is a dribble. Violation without touching again. If what he does after he ends the dribble looks like something else then i will wait to see what happens. If he's first to touch, violation.

I will want to be sure that what the player is doing is dribbling again but if he pushes ball straight down or close to him with no one else around i will call that a dribble without him actually touching it again.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 22, 2016, 03:22pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
There is another play where a player, after ending a dribble, throws the ball and it hits an official. Ruling is double dribble IF player first to touch it. Your play above and this play do not look like dribbles. Not a typical push down to the floor. Looks like pass so they dont immediately say double dribble. Only if player touches it first is it double.

In the palm/carry play it's double when player pushes it to the floor. I reconcile these by saying if what the player does after ending his first dribble...looks like a dribble....then it is a dribble. Violation without touching again. If what he does after he ends the dribble looks like something else then i will wait to see what happens. If he's first to touch, violation.

I will want to be sure that what the player is doing is dribbling again but if he pushes ball straight down or close to him with no one else around i will call that a dribble without him actually touching it again.
Agree.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
double dribble

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
dribble out of bounds or not? johnyd Basketball 4 Tue Feb 05, 2013 08:15am
Double dribble tref Basketball 13 Fri Feb 18, 2011 01:05pm
Interrupted Dribble - Out of Bounds CallMeMrRef Basketball 9 Sat Mar 07, 2009 02:44pm
Is it Double Dribble? remargo Basketball 18 Sun Feb 10, 2008 01:29pm
double dribble? theshortbaldref Basketball 4 Thu Feb 20, 2003 04:38am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:06pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1