Average Numeber of Called Fouls

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But you keep saying that the rules were there. Obviously not. There is no language in any part of the rule that states what you see in 10-1-4 in college or 10-6-12 in high school. Sorry, I do not see any rules other than saying that certain things could be illegal. But I do not see two hands is a foul no matter what on the ball handler in the rule you referenced. You are not the only official that has worked before me and I did not see anyone suggesting that those were fouls and had to be called every time as they have been explicitly put in the rules.

Peace

Jeff, you are absolutely correct. Until recently the rules did not say TWO hands is a foul. For the last 45 years they've only said touching another player with one hand is a foul unless it's on the ball. We were never told that two hands was illegal.

True story here. My best friend growing up was named Jeff. He'd come to my house and we'd play basketball in driveway. I was Akeem and he was Clyde. (It was a 9 foot rim). We finished one night And went inside and found the oreos. Started in on them with no dinner. My mom never minced words: "not one more until dinner." (With a few expletives) She screamed it at us. She walked out of kitchen. My best friend Jeff pulled out the Oreos, looked at me and smiled . "She said we couldn't have one more." We ate the other 2 rows. How do you think it went over when we said you said we couldn't have one more?

If one isn't allowed 2 surely isn't and I've got the bruises to prove it.

You responded to Camron and asked why did they have to create a rule...? Because some people are hard headed and think if there told not to eat one more Oreo it's ok to eat 2.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Jeff, you are absolutely correct. Until recently the rules did not say TWO hands is a foul. For the last 45 years they've only said touching another player with one hand is a foul unless it's on the ball. We were never told that two hands was illegal.



True story here. My best friend growing up was named Jeff. He'd come to my house and we'd play basketball in driveway. I was Akeem and he was Clyde. (It was a 9 foot rim). We finished one night And went inside and found the oreos. Started in on them with no dinner. My mom never minced words: "not one more until dinner." (With a few expletives) She screamed it at us. She walked out of kitchen. My best friend Jeff pulled out the Oreos, looked at me and smiled . "She said we couldn't have one more." We ate the other 2 rows. How do you think it went over when we said you said we couldn't have one more?



If one isn't allowed 2 surely isn't and I've got the bruises to prove it.



You responded to Camron and asked why did they have to create a rule...? Because some people are hard headed and think if there told not to eat one more Oreo it's ok to eat 2.

Merely touching with one hand was never a foul in any place I've lived the last 30 years.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Rich

Merely touching with one hand was never a foul in any place I've lived the last 30 years.

Let me try it this way to explain what i mean.

Take away the automatics and the new contact stuff in 10-7-12. Please assume it is not there. If I was your assignor (i appreciate people like you willing to do it because i never would) and i said "Rich, we are going to change the way we play in this league. If a player puts two hands on a player or puts one hand on a player and leaves it there i want you to call a foul."

There is and has been in place forever a rule that could be used to support making those calls/philosophy.. IF that's how you wanted it called. 10-7-2. You cant put hand on player unless hand contact ball etc. That rule covers it. If you cant put one, you cant put two. We didnt really need a new rule to call two hands on a player a foul. We had to change the philosophy..the thinking.

They tried just saying "call it" to referees and "dont do it" to players and coaches without the automatics but it still wasnt getting through. So they decided to let everyone know in no uncertain terms by adding a complete article and spelling each thing out.

As evidence that the rules were already in place to call it the way we are now, i cited play in the 70s and early 80s. It was played and called cleaner then. the automatics didn't meet to be spelled out word for word. There were rules already in place. As you said, there started being more and more athleticism and the thinking was get out of their way and let them play. Advantage/disadvantage is latched on to. Game got so physical it was problem. People started realizing to actually see all the athleticism and let the great athletes...be great athletes, the whistle needed to be blown more.

This is what i believe and what i was trying to say. The rules to call a clean game have been in place for a long time, it was the thinking/philosophy that needed to change. People werent changing, referees, players etc by simply telling them what they wanted so they decided to scream it at them by making an entirely separate article in the rules. The automatics. Its just what i think.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Let me try it this way to explain what i mean.

Take away the automatics and the new contact stuff in 10-7-12. Please assume it is not there. If I was your assignor (i appreciate people like you willing to do it because i never would) and i said "Rich, we are going to change the way we play in this league. If a player puts two hands on a player or puts one hand on a player and leaves it there i want you to call a foul."

There is and has been in place forever a rule that could be used to support making those calls/philosophy.. IF that's how you wanted it called. 10-7-2. You cant put hand on player unless hand contact ball etc. That rule covers it. If you cant put one, you cant put two. We didnt really need a new rule to call two hands on a player a foul. We had to change the philosophy..the thinking.

They tried just saying "call it" to referees and "dont do it" to players and coaches without the automatics but it still wasnt getting through. So they decided to let everyone know in no uncertain terms by adding a complete article and spelling each thing out.

As evidence that the rules were already in place to call it the way we are now, i cited play in the 70s and early 80s. It was played and called cleaner then. the automatics didn't meet to be spelled out word for word. There were rules already in place. As you said, there started being more and more athleticism and the thinking was get out of their way and let them play. Advantage/disadvantage is latched on to. Game got so physical it was problem. People started realizing to actually see all the athleticism and let the great athletes...be great athletes, the whistle needed to be blown more.

This is what i believe and what i was trying to say. The rules to call a clean game have been in place for a long time, it was the thinking/philosophy that needed to change. People werent changing, referees, players etc by simply telling them what they wanted so they decided to scream it at them by making an entirely separate article in the rules. The automatics. Its just what i think.

When I started in the 80s, the defenses didn't play the way they do now.

I'm not sure if it's because of the officiating, though. Too many mental gymnastics for me -- I don't remember entire seasons from back then.

It's hard to say. I'm not unhappy with where this has gone, though. I called 3 handchecks against the same team in about 5 minutes this past week. 5 years ago that coach would've been all over me. Now he's all over the players.

Some coaches haven't gotten the memo -- those are not the best coaches in the area, though, and never will be.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich

When I started in the 80s, the defenses didn't play the way they do now.

Back when I started officiating thirty-six years ago, the big push was on advantage/disadvantage, that hasn't stopped completely, but now we also talk about freedom of movement.

[BigT]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Jeff, you are absolutely correct. Until recently the rules did not say TWO hands is a foul. For the last 45 years they've only said touching another player with one hand is a foul unless it's on the ball. We were never told that two hands was illegal.

True story here. My best friend growing up was named Jeff. He'd come to my house and we'd play basketball in driveway. I was Akeem and he was Clyde. (It was a 9 foot rim). We finished one night And went inside and found the oreos. Started in on them with no dinner. My mom never minced words: "not one more until dinner." (With a few expletives) She screamed it at us. She walked out of kitchen. My best friend Jeff pulled out the Oreos, looked at me and smiled . "She said we couldn't have one more." We ate the other 2 rows. How do you think it went over when we said you said we couldn't have one more?

If one isn't allowed 2 surely isn't and I've got the bruises to prove it.

You responded to Camron and asked why did they have to create a rule...? Because some people are hard headed and think if there told not to eat one more Oreo it's ok to eat 2.

Man this is an awesome story!

[packersowner]

Originally Posted by BigT

Man this is an awesome story!

Agreed and now its time to go blow my whistle....