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Old Tue Jan 26, 2010, 11:05pm
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Why are intentional fouls (2 shots & possession) rarely called in youth games.

First by way of discalimer I am posting mostly as a parent. I have been coaching up to through the U12 level ... and love the sport as a fan but clearly consider myself as a coach as a work in progress.

I have a pet peave ... I guess I want to see if I have a point or perhaps I'll get a message from a board I respect as to why I am wrong .... and I will be able to let go.

I watch basketball NBA, and college constantly (Uconn grad) .... I see that when defenders are behind a play on a breakaway they let the play run. As I understand it as a novice, if the trailing defender pushes the offensive player or gives a hard foul without a real attempt to play the ball ... the foul is 2 shots and possession. I have heard a simiiar situation called "clear path to the basket." Anyway it seems clear the rules are enforced to keep hard out of control fouling out of these situations by awarding 2 shots and possession. (or a technical foul)

My pet peave is I never see 2 shots and possession awarded in youth games in these situations. I cant understand what I see as a divergence between the way these games are officiated when I watch them on tv as compared to the youth level. This seems to me to be by far the most likely situation to cause a serious injury. On top of the speed the players are traveling, we generally play in smaller gyms with additional dangerous situations behind the basket area.

I just dont get it .. I never see a defensive player just let an offensive player go on a breakaway when they are behind the play. It is the norm that they run as fast as they can and push the offensive player from behind. Bodies go flying ... and the youth officials award the offensive team with an inbounds play (usually because there has been a tackle before a shot attempt) or if lucky a 2 shot foul. Problem is that under either situation, especially where youth free throw shooting is lucky to be much better than 50% ...the message to the coaches and players is that the from behind tackle on a breakway is a good foul.

I have sat through about 40 youth games this year and I have not once seen the 2 shots and possession awarded. The teams I am watching and coaching play a 1-3-1 half court trap defense .. so we are talking about a large number of single player fast break runs. Never uncontested always a run from behind hack.

Is the 2 shot and possession award not in play in the youth situation? If so why not? If anything I would expect that safety concerns would dictate that if a greater emphasis would be made to discourage hard contact on fast breaks at the youth level.
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Old Tue Jan 26, 2010, 11:25pm
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Well, probably the reason you don't see two shots and possession is it is now classed as 2 shots+POI.

If the situations are occurring like you describe it, contact your local official's association.
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Old Tue Jan 26, 2010, 11:27pm
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What are the qualifications of the officials in your league? It could be that your rules knowledge is greater than theirs.

From an officials' point of view, without seeing the plays in question, it is impossible to say whether such a call would have been justified or not.
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 12:54am
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My guess is your officials are very inexperienced and possibly volunteer and may not know what an intentional foul is. I see the same thing in our youth league games that I reff. Most of the time I'm the only certified reff and I "get" partners to work with that are HS basketball players or a parent that played in HS 10 years ago. I do 30-40 youth games (all volunteer) a year and I rarely (1 a year) call an intentional foul at this level. The players don't play "dirty" at this level generally whereas in HS some kids will push with two hands when a layup is attempted especially if it is their last foul. In youth league it seems they are playing the ball all the way to the hoop and just don't have good control of their bodies so bad collisions do occur, yet these fouls are not intentional due to the low skill of the players. These same collisions in HS wouldn't be an intentional foul either as long as the player made a legitimate attempt to block the ball. Sure there was contact but was it a "hard" abnormal collision? One would have to see it to really determine (where's Clark again with a utube) if it were intentional.
Good Luck, thanks for coaching America's Youth!
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 01:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by constable View Post
Well, probably the reason you don't see two shots and possession is it is now classed as 2 shots+POI.
Do you use FIBA rules? Because this is definitely not true in NFHS, and to the best of my knowledge, it's incorrect in NCAA also.
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 01:47am
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Originally Posted by NewNCref View Post
Do you use FIBA rules? Because this is definitely not true in NFHS, and to the best of my knowledge, it's incorrect in NCAA also.
Two shots and the ball at the designated spot closet to where the foul occurred so same for NCAA.
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 06:45am
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This Describes Our Wreck leagues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loudwhistle View Post
My guess is your officials are very inexperienced....
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
What are the qualifications of the officials in your league? It could be that your rules knowledge is greater than theirs.
I Ref in two local Rec Leagues and am the only state certified official in either league. We're talking 60-70 Teenagers and maybe 15 adults. Their training is not so much......

Calling an intentional foul for them may be like calling a charge or player control foul, or a travel on a spin move - they just don't have the experience, confidence, and knowledge. They need to be educated and ref more games before they start calling these.

Sometimes we're lucky just to get some of them to blow the whistle at all.......

My $.02
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 06:55am
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I would say that things aren't done with such precision at the youth level because just as the kids participating are inexperienced and make a lot of mistakes so do most of the officials. It is likely that these people are good-hearted folks who are out there just to help the kids play. Most likely they don't know the specific details of the rules used at the HS and college levels, let alone the NBA. I know that when I was a little guy playing at the local Y, things didn't go perfectly, but I sure had fun.
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 07:27am
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Originally Posted by agelof View Post
I have a pet peave ... I guess I want to see if I have a point or perhaps I'll get a message from a board I respect as to why I am wrong .... and I will be able to let go.
My advice: if your player is fouled on a breakaway, calmly ask the covering official, "isn't that an intentional foul?" If the official looks at you as if you were speaking Chinese, then drop it and play on. Otherwise, just accept whatever answer you're given and play on, since you will have made your point.

You can't control the officiating. All you control is how well you develop your kids into good sports who enjoy the game (no matter how good they get at it).
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 09:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by constable View Post
Well, probably the reason you don't see two shots and possession is it is now classed as 2 shots+POI.

If the situations are occurring like you describe it, contact your local official's association.
constable - are you using those funny Ontario (or center of the universe) rules again???

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewNCref View Post
Do you use FIBA rules? Because this is definitely not true in NFHS, and to the best of my knowledge, it's incorrect in NCAA also.
FIBA penalty for an Unsportsmanlike Foul is 2 FT + Possession of the ball at the division line.
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 11:13am
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My point

[QUOTE=Loudwhistle;655783]The players don't play "dirty" at this level generally whereas in HS some kids will push with two hands when a layup is attempted especially if it is their last foul. In youth league it seems they are playing the ball all the way to the hoop and just don't have good control of their bodies so bad collisions do occur, yet these fouls are not intentional due to the low skill of the players. These same collisions in HS wouldn't be an intentional foul either as long as the player made a legitimate attempt to block the ball. Sure there was contact but was it a "hard" abnormal collision?

This is what I am getting at .... bodies are always flying at the youth level more so than in higher levels. Most of the time the kids doing the hard fouls probably don't know any better .... like loudwhistle says they just don't have good control of their bodies. The problem I have is these collisions are so dangerous. Aren't we letting kids off the hook by interpeting that they just don't know any better. Officals are encouraging ignorance because kids are always given the benifit of the doubt. I'm trying to think of a good anaolgy. ..... If I dont want my kid playing with my gun and only punish him if he intentionally plays with it against my wishes ..... but never tell him he can't play with it ... I have created a vicious cycle where he is never told any better, thus he is never truly acting intentionally in a disobediant way. Nevertheless the dangerous conduct continues.

In my mind these fouls are almost always intentional. The kids on defense are trying to stop the layup attempt at all costs and don't even know they need to make an attempt at the ball. The certainly have good enough control of their bodies that if they have no hope of getting to the ball they could understand to let it go. I know we can get into a review of the plays and some (two hand push from behind) may be more obvious than others (hip check running pararel when they finally catch up to the play) .... but because this is one of the most dangerous situations that exists ... shouldn't officials aggresively interpet this rule? ..... again its not even on the coaches check list to tell the players what is proper to do if ignorance gives his team a benefit. (hack = a good play)

To me ... I would love to have an offical tell me before a game ... its a safety issue. I am going to interpet the intentional foul on fast break strictly. If a player fouls and is not clearly making a play on the ball (and he better get it) I am giving 2 shots +POI .... much less likely a kid is going to get hurt.

Cant we get the bodies to stop flying. I just dont get "these fouls are not intentional because of the low skill level of the players." That is the exact pet peave I have ..... if my low skill level 120 lb new to basketball from footbal 12 year old treats dribbling like a optional play when he charges to the basket mauling kids in his wake ... does he get a pass because he has a low skill level? It seems this is the only situation I know of where kids get a benefit for being low skill level and it just happens to create the most dangerous situation.
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 11:33am
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Originally Posted by agelof View Post

To me ... I would love to have an offical tell me before a game ... its a safety issue. I am going to interpet the intentional foul on fast break strictly. If a player fouls and is not clearly making a play on the ball (and he better get it) I am giving 2 shots +POI .... much less likely a kid is going to get hurt.

Cant we get the bodies to stop flying. I just dont get "these fouls are not intentional because of the low skill level of the players." That is the exact pet peave I have ..... if my low skill level 120 lb new to basketball from footbal 12 year old treats dribbling like a optional play when he charges to the basket mauling kids in his wake ... does he get a pass because he has a low skill level? It seems this is the only situation I know of where kids get a benefit for being low skill level and it just happens to create the most dangerous situation.
I have refereed this level a lot in this my first year. I have called a couple of intentional fouls. I do not think that calling them intentional or personal is going to alter the frequency or severity of contact.
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 11:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewNCref View Post
Do you use FIBA rules? Because this is definitely not true in NFHS, and to the best of my knowledge, it's incorrect in NCAA also.

Incorrect? Maybe I worded it incorrectly. It's 2 shots plus the ball at the spot closest to the foul.

FIBA is 2 shots and a throw in straddling the division line so you can go either front or back court.

If memory serves, Fed used to be 2 shots and the ball at centre for an Int- same as a T.
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 12:26pm
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Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909 View Post
I have refereed this level a lot in this my first year. I have called a couple of intentional fouls. I do not think that calling them intentional or personal is going to alter the frequency or severity of contact.
I disagree. You can count on coaches to coach to win. It shouldnt be that way but it is. If these fouls when they occur cost a coach a chance to win he will coach to avoid them. The more it hurts the more the coach will try to re-enforce the rule in pre-game and practice. We heard the same argument for calling reach in fouls, double dribble and travel consistently couple years back at U8 level. Argument was kids just can't change behavior because of age (or that its going to slow down games too much) a few coaches made the plea to start calling the games tighter .... of course ... you still get a kid or two that get (and should) and do get a wider bearth ...but when the kids started getting calls ... they started to learn what can do and cant and coaches emphasized skills more ....
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 12:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agelof View Post
...

In my mind these fouls are almost always intentional. The kids on defense are trying to stop the layup attempt at all costs and don't even know they need to make an attempt at the ball. The certainly have good enough control of their bodies that if they have no hope of getting to the ball they could understand to let it go. I know we can get into a review of the plays and some (two hand push from behind) may be more obvious than others (hip check running pararel when they finally catch up to the play) .... but because this is one of the most dangerous situations that exists ... shouldn't officials aggresively interpet this rule? ..... again its not even on the coaches check list to tell the players what is proper to do if ignorance gives his team a benefit. (hack = a good play)

To me ... I would love to have an offical tell me before a game ... its a safety issue. I am going to interpet the intentional foul on fast break strictly. If a player fouls and is not clearly making a play on the ball (and he better get it) I am giving 2 shots +POI .... much less likely a kid is going to get hurt.

Cant we get the bodies to stop flying. I just dont get "these fouls are not intentional because of the low skill level of the players." That is the exact pet peave I have ..... if my low skill level 120 lb new to basketball from footbal 12 year old treats dribbling like a optional play when he charges to the basket mauling kids in his wake ... does he get a pass because he has a low skill level? It seems this is the only situation I know of where kids get a benefit for being low skill level and it just happens to create the most dangerous situation.
Sounds like you should bring this up to the head of the league and get some education for the coaches. Low level, inexperienced or volunteer officials can only be called upon so much to clean this up. If the kids are taught that this isn't how you play, the problem ceases to exist.
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