Make the call

[BigCat]

A1 is dribbling ball up in backcourt. A2 is running in FC and meets up with B2. Both have attitude and shove each other at same time. No words. What is call. NFHS/NCAA men

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BigCat

A1 is dribbling ball up in backcourt. A2 is running in FC and meets up with B2. Both have attitude and shove each other at same time. No words. What is call. NFHS/NCAA men

Double Technical foul. No FTs awarded, go to POI.

Come on, big money!

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Double Technical foul. No FTs awarded, go to POI.

Come on, big money!

This is why i put it out there. There are a lot of people who think double Ts are available. I think they should be but they're not under rules we have now.

[Rooster]

Adios to A2 and B2, flagrant fouls to each. Add the fouls to each team's totals. Team A inbounds the ball in the backcourt.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BigCat

A1 is dribbling ball up in backcourt. A2 is running in FC and meets up with B2. Both have attitude and shove each other at same time. No words. What is call. NFHS/NCAA men

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Double Technical foul. No FTs awarded, go to POI.

Come on, big money!

Originally Posted by Rooster

Adios to A2 and B2, flagrant fouls to each. Add the fouls to each team's totals. Team A inbounds the ball in the backcourt.

The Ball was Live when A2 and B2 committed the fouls against each other, therefore the foul is a Double Personal Foul under both NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's Rules.

MTD, Sr.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The Ball was Live when A2 and B2 committed the fouls against each other, therefore the foul is a Double Personal Foul under both NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's Rules.



MTD, Sr.

Bingo. You can deem one or both parts flagrant, but by definition you cannot deem them technical.

Which brings up some interesting sidebars:

1. NFHS: Suppose one part of the double personal foul is intentional or flagrant, and the other is common? What do you do?

2. NCAA: Suppose one part of the double personal foul is F1 or F2 and the other part is not the same. What do you do?


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[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Bingo. You can deem one or both parts flagrant, but by definition you cannot deem them technical.

Which brings up some interesting sidebars:

1. NFHS: Suppose one part of the double personal foul is intentional or flagrant, and the other is common? What do you do?

2. NCAA: Suppose one part of the double personal foul is F1 or F2 and the other part is not the same. What do you do?


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NCAAW (and I think Men is the same, except the throw-in is at the division line)

Art. 10. After any double personal or technical fouls or any simultaneous personal or technical fouls when there is team control and only one of the fouls is a flagrant foul, play shall be resumed with a throw-in to the offended team at the point of interruption

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

NCAAW (and I think Men is the same, except the throw-in is at the division line)

Art. 10. After any double personal or technical fouls or any simultaneous personal or technical fouls when there is team control and only one of the fouls is a flagrant foul, play shall be resumed with a throw-in to the offended team at the point of interruption

Got it. So in NCAA, still no free throws, but there is some penalty for the more egregious side of the double foul in that the offended team gets the ball regardless of who had team control to begin with.

What if there is an unbalanced double technical when there is NOT team control (e.g. during a dead ball)?


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[BigCat]

I brought this situation up because i dont like the fact that because the ball was live our only choices are double intentional fouls or flagrant. Flagrant is too severe for the situation im envisioning and double personals isnt severe enough.

Id like to have the option to call it a T. Player might change attitude knowing he gets another he is ejected and suspended. As a practical matter, if a player acts up again after we call the double personal we can just call that flagrant and toss him. I havnt thought too deeply about it but not sure why they dont allow us to call double Ts.

[Rooster]

Originally Posted by BigCat

A1 is dribbling ball up in backcourt. A2 is running in FC and meets up with B2. Both have attitude and shove each other at same time. No words. What is call. NFHS/NCAA men

For funsies, no one see this as a fighting act, worthy of flagrant fouls and disqualification?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Rooster

For funsies, no one see this as a fighting act, worthy of flagrant fouls and disqualification?

Well, im pretty sure im the only referee who saw it...and no, it did not rise to a fighting act. It was BS but nothing id toss somebody over. Now, I would have liked to have called double Ts but that wasnt an option.

I used the phrase "shoved each other with attitude" because I was trying to describe something that wasnt flagrant but was more than a regular foul. Can a shove be a fighting act? Sure, but just because there was a shove doesnt mean it was a fighting act. You would have to actually...see it. Thx

[Rooster]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Well, im pretty sure im the only referee who saw it...and no, it did not rise to a fighting act. It was BS but nothing id toss somebody over. Now, I would have liked to have called double Ts but that wasnt an option.

I used the phrase "shoved each other with attitude" because I was trying to describe something that wasnt flagrant but was more than a regular foul. Can a shove be a fighting act? Sure, but just because there was a shove doesnt mean it was a fighting act. You would have to actually...see it. Thx

So to clarify: You did NOT have two players square up to one another and then push each other, playground-style, with two pairs of arms extended? Was this just a "get off me" kind of thing?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Rooster

So to clarify: You did NOT have two players square up to one another and then push each other, playground-style, with two pairs of arms extended? Was this just a "get off me" kind of thing?

I'm sorry. I can't make it much clearer. 2 players came together just outside the lane above the block and shoved each other with attitude. Not sure what you mean by "square up" and "playground style."

It wasn't a basketball play but it wasn't enough to toss either of them.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Rooster

For funsies, no one see this as a fighting act, worthy of flagrant fouls and disqualification?

As described? No.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Adam

As described? No.

Agree. The definition of fighting involves a combative act such as a kick, punch, strike…things of that nature. A mutual shove does not rise to this level.

Rule 4....live it, love it.


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