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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 30, 2016, 08:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Maeder View Post
Did we forget to charge the bench personnel who dunked the ball with a direct tech. 1 of their 2 towards DQ, 1 of their 5 towards DQ, and 1 towards team total for bonus.
Plus indirect on coach.

But, my guess is that SeanFitz was asking about the double-T aspect
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 30, 2016, 04:21pm
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OK, so we assessed the techs to each player, towards their count and the team count.
The confusion was around possession (none had been established), but in theory of the rule as applied, B gets 2 shots and possession, but then A gets 2 shots and the possession. (Assessed in order of occurence
B gets the next arrow, A starts with possession.

We forgot the indirect on the coaches.
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Last edited by SeanFitzRef; Wed Nov 30, 2016 at 04:31pm.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 30, 2016, 04:30pm
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Depends on order of occurrence. The last team to shoot the tech free throws would get the ball at the division line opposite, and when the thrower in received the ball the arrow would be set to the opposing team.
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Old Wed Nov 30, 2016, 04:45pm
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Full disclosure of the situation:

A1 dunks 2 mins after we enter the court and give the obligatory whistle blast.
As I am standing with BOTH coaches confirming rosters, B2 dunks. This happened ` 2mins after the first and his head coach screamed the warning (again).

So, we marked the book as pf1 on both players, as well as 1 foul each towards the bonus. We then shot 2 throws for B (A's tech was first), 2 for A, then jumped center and went. (college mechanic)

Nothing in the case plays, and I know what happens after one. So it should have followed that the actions are penalized in the order of occurrence.

Again, we missed the biggest piece (indirect on the coaches, loss of coach box).

Live and learn long enough, you'll see it all.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 30, 2016, 04:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Maeder View Post
Depends on order of occurrence. The last team to shoot the tech free throws would get the ball at the division line opposite, and when the thrower in received the ball the arrow would be set to the opposing team.
Yup, when we talked post game, that was the prevailing thought.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 01, 2016, 04:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanFitzRef View Post
Full disclosure of the situation:

A1 dunks 2 mins after we enter the court and give the obligatory whistle blast.
As I am standing with BOTH coaches confirming rosters, B2 dunks. This happened ` 2mins after the first and his head coach screamed the warning (again).

So, we marked the book as pf1 on both players, as well as 1 foul each towards the bonus. We then shot 2 throws for B (A's tech was first), 2 for A, then jumped center and went. (college mechanic)

Nothing in the case plays, and I know what happens after one. So it should have followed that the actions are penalized in the order of occurrence.

Again, we missed the biggest piece (indirect on the coaches, loss of coach box).

Live and learn long enough, you'll see it all.
A couple of years ago the NFHS put out a ruling for pregame Ts by both teams and stated that they are treated as simultaneous fouls. Perhaps that was only for administrative technical fouls though. I will need to check.
It was a confusing ruling and not based upon the text of the rules book, but the NFHS did publish it.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 01, 2016, 10:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
A couple of years ago the NFHS put out a ruling for pregame Ts by both teams and stated that they are treated as simultaneous fouls. Perhaps that was only for administrative technical fouls though. I will need to check.
It was a confusing ruling and not based upon the text of the rules book, but the NFHS did publish it.
That was only for administrative Ts, such as one team adding a player to the roster at 8 min., and the other team changing a starter at 2 min. Pregame dunks by both teams are still treated as False Double Fouls.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 03, 2016, 01:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
A couple of years ago the NFHS put out a ruling for pregame Ts by both teams and stated that they are treated as simultaneous fouls. Perhaps that was only for administrative technical fouls though. I will need to check.
It was a confusing ruling and not based upon the text of the rules book, but the NFHS did publish it.
3.4.3(c)
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 03, 2016, 11:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
3.4.3(c)

Starter, A1, has brought the wrong uniform and with eight minutes on the clock prior to the start of the game, switches with A15 and now is wearing a legal jersey but a new number. With two minutes on the clock prior to the start of the game, it is discovered that starter, B1, is wearing a different jersey than indicated in the scorebook. It is confirmed that a wrong number was provided to the official scorer and a change is made to reflect the correct number in the scorebook.

RULING: Both Team A and B are charged with a technical foul for changing a number in the scorebook and will begin the game with one team foul toward the bonus. No free throws are awarded and the game will begin at the point of interruption, which is the opening jump ball.

COMMENT: When each team is assessed one technical foul prior to the game, a double technical foul has occurred, as this is considered “approximately the same time.” (4-19-8b; 4-36-2c; 10-1-2) (See 6.4.1 SITUATION A)

Interesting reasoning. Especially when you go to the referenced case play.

6.4.1 Situation A:

"Twelve minutes before the game is scheduled to start, team member A1 dunks the ball and is charged with a technical foul. B1 is discovered to be wearing an illegal jersey, as the players prepare for the start of the game.

RULING: The game will be started by awarding Team B two free throws for A1’s technical foul. Team A will then be given two free throws and the ball for a division-line throw-in for B1’s infraction. When the thrower of Team A has the ball for the throw-in, they have control for purposes of establishing the alternating possession procedure and the arrow is immediately set toward B’s basket. Team B will have the first opportunity for an alternating-possession throw-in. (4-3)"

Confused yet?
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 04, 2016, 03:52am
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Originally Posted by junruh07 View Post
That was only for administrative Ts, such as one team adding a player to the roster at 8 min., and the other team changing a starter at 2 min. Pregame dunks by both teams are still treated as False Double Fouls.
The comment published with the case play does not specify that the ruling only applies to administrative technicals.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 04, 2016, 04:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
Starter, A1, has brought the wrong uniform and with eight minutes on the clock prior to the start of the game, switches with A15 and now is wearing a legal jersey but a new number. With two minutes on the clock prior to the start of the game, it is discovered that starter, B1, is wearing a different jersey than indicated in the scorebook. It is confirmed that a wrong number was provided to the official scorer and a change is made to reflect the correct number in the scorebook.

RULING: Both Team A and B are charged with a technical foul for changing a number in the scorebook and will begin the game with one team foul toward the bonus. No free throws are awarded and the game will begin at the point of interruption, which is the opening jump ball.

COMMENT: When each team is assessed one technical foul prior to the game, a double technical foul has occurred, as this is considered “approximately the same time.” (4-19-8b; 4-36-2c; 10-1-2) (See 6.4.1 SITUATION A)

Interesting reasoning. Especially when you go to the referenced case play.

6.4.1 Situation A:

"Twelve minutes before the game is scheduled to start, team member A1 dunks the ball and is charged with a technical foul. B1 is discovered to be wearing an illegal jersey, as the players prepare for the start of the game.

RULING: The game will be started by awarding Team B two free throws for A1’s technical foul. Team A will then be given two free throws and the ball for a division-line throw-in for B1’s infraction. When the thrower of Team A has the ball for the throw-in, they have control for purposes of establishing the alternating possession procedure and the arrow is immediately set toward B’s basket. Team B will have the first opportunity for an alternating-possession throw-in. (4-3)"

Confused yet?
We need to think harder about the words used.

When a player dunks, that T is charged to him and indirectly to coach(during pregame) . That is more than a T charged to a team. It is more than a team T.Administrative Ts only go to the TEAM. If there are techs before game that are only charged to TEAM as opposed to individuals those will offset.


S the words used have specific meanings
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 04, 2016, 05:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
We need to think harder about the words used.

When a player dunks, that T is charged to him and indirectly to coach(during pregame) . That is more than a T charged to a team. It is more than a team T.Administrative Ts only go to the TEAM. If there are techs before game that are only charged to TEAM as opposed to individuals those will offset.


S the words used have specific meanings
I can go along with that reasoning.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 04, 2016, 10:10pm
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2016-17 case book. 6.4.1 situation F. Addresses my exact situation exactly.


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