ND-SFA Last Basket

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

I just watched the video. In a high school game, I'm not even going to have a 5 second count because the clock will be running with under 5 seconds. In any stopped clock game, I'm doing exactly what these guys did.

Starting a count early here isn't doing anyone any good.

In a high school game, if the ball is unavailable, we should stop the clock while it's retrieved. In this play that wouldn't come into play because the basket is with 1.5 and about 3 seconds elapse before it rolls out of sight.

The key is what constitutes early.

This is the first time I recall seeing this issue discussed.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

In a high school game, if the ball is unavailable, we should stop the clock while it's retrieved. In this play that wouldn't come into play because the basket is with 1.5 and about 3 seconds elapse before it rolls out of sight.

The key is what constitutes early.

This is the first time I recall seeing this issue discussed.

By "early," I simply meant before the player grabbed the ball OOB. I will do this several times a season when players are wandering around. In this case, even if there were 15 seconds left, I'm probably just going to stop the clock and administer the T-I once it rolls out off the court.

If it didn't roll off the court, I'll probably let the new offense waste some time before I'd even consider starting a count.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Adam

I just watched the video. In a high school game, I'm not even going to have a 5 second count because the clock will be running with under 5 seconds. In any stopped clock game, I'm doing exactly what these guys did.

Starting a count early here isn't doing anyone any good.

What he ^^^ said.

Originally Posted by just another ref

When I posted the original question, I thought the ball was lying in plain sight the whole time. It wasn't. But from the reactions of everyone involved, I don't think it was ever not available. With all that in mind, I would have started a count when the first guy stepped out of bounds. I see nothing in the wording that makes that wrong. I also don't see whether the clock is running or stopped has anything to do with this rule. And I also don't know what a "deliberate" count is.

My question in terms of starting the count in the ND/SFA situation - and I would ask this after the game if we'd been working together - would be, "What's the rush?" The offense is in a lousy situation and the defense is getting a chance to set up. Nothing in the wording of the rule may make starting the count wrong but as BNR said supervisors aren't looking for "gotcha" officiating, especially in a situation where, in 0:01.5 of game time, one of the teams is about to see its season come to a crushing end. Sometimes there's a difference between being right and being reasonable. Heck, I think the next step before starting the count would've been for the new T to go get the ball and give it to the SFA player.

Originally Posted by just another ref

I also don't know what a "deliberate" count is.

Deliberate meaning if they're taking "forever" - or what feels like it - to pick up the ball, your five-second count becomes slow and exaggerated. That way if you really really have to call the violation, even Stevie Wonder in the last row can say, "Yeah, they took a long time to get the ball in. I get why they called it."

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

My question in terms of starting the count in the ND/SFA situation - and I would ask this after the game if we'd been working together - would be, "What's the rush?" The offense is in a lousy situation and the defense is getting a chance to set up. .......one of the teams is about to see its season come to a crushing end.

As to the first part, it depends which side you're on. You say "What's the rush?" ND coach says "What took you so long?"

As for the rest of it, I don't see that any of these are our concern.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

As to the first part, it depends which side you're on. You say "What's the rush?" ND coach says "What took you so long?"

ND's coach is happy he got to set up a defense, he's not asking what took so long.

Originally Posted by just another ref

As for the rest of it, I don't see that any of these are our concern.

It is if you have supervisors and NCAA regional observers who say it is. Since you don't work for any NCAA supervisors you can't really judge what is important to them, can you?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

As to the first part, it depends which side you're on. You say "What's the rush?" ND coach says "What took you so long?"

As for the rest of it, I don't see that any of these are our concern.

Unfortunately the game is our concern. I used to think very black and white for all situations and have adjusted. Some are grey and you figure it out as you go.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It is if you have supervisors and NCAA regional observers who say it is. Since you don't work for any NCAA supervisors you can't really judge what is important to them, can you?

You're telling me your NCAA supervisor wants you to give the team who is about to absorb the crushing blow a few extra seconds to set up their half court heave?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You're telling me your NCAA supervisor wants you to give the team who is about to absorb the crushing blow a few extra seconds to set up their half court heave?

He's telling you that you are the only one on this planet that cares.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You're telling me your NCAA supervisor wants you to give the team who is about to absorb the crushing blow a few extra seconds to set up their half court heave?

Have you not noticed you're the only one peeing into a stiff breeze here?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You're telling me your NCAA supervisor wants you to give the team who is about to absorb the crushing blow a few extra seconds to set up their half court heave?

What he is telling you that you work only high school, what they do at the college level is not what you are asked to do at your level. Just like the other things you get you shorts all tied up about, this is one of those things.

This is not a moral issue, the clock is stopped and it it treated differently than a game you would work. Just like you try to defend what you do in your state, people are telling you what goes on at this level and you keep fighting the reality.

Peace

[just another ref]

Not peeing into the wind. (This time) I asked the question. I'm told that's how it's handled. That's fine. The part about the team absorbing the defeat was brought up afterward. That's the part I still find unusual. But that's fine too. I'm done.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Not peeing into the wind. (This time) I asked the question. I'm told that's how it's handled. That's fine. The part about the team absorbing the defeat was brought up afterward. That's the part I still find unusual. But that's fine too. I'm done.

Also, I doubt I'd stop the clock in a HS game once the first person started for it and then didn't continue.....the team's losing, the clock's running, they're out of timeouts, why should I help them?

I'd actually be in favor of the NCAA stop clock under a minute rule under NFHS play. Yes, I know that our timers would probably be disastrous with it. Still, I think it would eliminate a lot of other potential problems.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Rich

Also, I doubt I'd stop the clock in a HS game once the first person started for it and then didn't continue.....the team's losing, the clock's running, they're out of timeouts, why should I help them?

I'd actually be in favor of the NCAA stop clock under a minute rule under NFHS play. Yes, I know that our timers would probably be disastrous with it. Still, I think it would eliminate a lot of other potential problems.

I'd like that for HS also. I've had that thought for quite a while now.

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[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Rich

Also, I doubt I'd stop the clock in a HS game once the first person started for it and then didn't continue.....the team's losing, the clock's running, they're out of timeouts, why should I help them?

I'd actually be in favor of the NCAA stop clock under a minute rule under NFHS play. Yes, I know that our timers would probably be disastrous with it. Still, I think it would eliminate a lot of other potential problems.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'd like that for HS also. I've had that thought for quite a while now.

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It's troublesome but less troublesome than you might think. No more than any other issue you come across when HS students handle the table. If I'm going to have a problem in a NYC GV game it's usually on that first FG when the clock is at 0:59.9 or less because the kids forget (yes, we remind them). I actually have more problems during BV - i.e., NFHS - games because those kids either work the table for GV as well and they get the rules mixed up or they're so used to watching NBA games they stop the clock after every made FG under 2:00 in each quarter. In the latter situation I'll smile and say to the timer, "Do you want to go home tonight? Because I do."