ND-SFA Last Basket

[just another ref]

How does the wording compare in NCAA rules compared to NFHS with regard to ball at disposal and starting the throw-in count after the made basket? On the last play in this game the ball laid on the floor for a couple of seconds before being rolled out of bounds where it remained for another 7 or 8 seconds before being picked up and, I assume, the count started.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by just another ref

How does the wording compare in NCAA rules compared to NFHS with regard to ball at disposal and starting the throw-in count after the made basket? On the last play in this game the ball laid on the floor for a couple of seconds before being rolled out of bounds where it remained for another 7 or 8 seconds before being picked up and, I assume, the count started.

I thought about that, too. I don't think there is any difference between the rule sets (other than the clock stopping after the made basket), and from lots of other discussions on this forum, you give the non-scoring team a lot of latitude when it comes to retrieving the ball and starting your count. I was perfectly ok with the way the officials handled that.

Of course, in a federation game, if the ball rolls under a bleacher or is in some other way hard to get to, you should blow it dead so as not to disadvantage the non-scoring team. And that is assuming they did not have a time out to call (which they almost certainly would in this case if they did).

By the way, as a side note, I thought the clock (at least the one on TV) was changed from 1.4 to 1.5 seconds during that long pause after the basket. How did that happen if the officials did not stop play to address it? Could be just a sync issue with the game clock and the television clock. But I could not help but notice that.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by just another ref

How does the wording compare in NCAA rules compared to NFHS with regard to ball at disposal and starting the throw-in count after the made basket? On the last play in this game the ball laid on the floor for a couple of seconds before being rolled out of bounds where it remained for another 7 or 8 seconds before being picked up and, I assume, the count started.

It's one of those great circular rules and it's the same in NCAA and NFHS.

NCAAW 7-6-4: A throw-in and the throw-in count shall begin when the ball is at the disposal of the player entitled to the throw-in

NCAAW 4-12-1d: The ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

(The NCAAM's wording should be the same, though the rule #s might be slightly different)

So, the count begins when the ball is at the disposal...and the ball is at the disposal when it's available to a player and the count begins. I call it the chicken or the egg rule.

At any rate, common sense will play into a situation such as SFA/ND. SFA is getting its bearings after giving up an emotionally devastating FG. There was definitely a lot of time taken between the FG and a player retrieving the ball but that time also allowed ND to set up its defense. One could say the delay was more advantageous to ND since it was setting up its defense in front of its own bench while SFA's head coach was - at best - 66 feet away from the player making the throw-in.

[bob jenkins]

If the clock had been running, and it was the team that was ahead that didn't get to the ball, then start counting.

Or, if one player had the ball, but the others "weren't ready" -- then start the count.

In this game, in this situation, it was right (imo).

[Rich]

I'd love to see a video of the sequence before that. Specifically how the ND player ended up on the floor after engaging with #0 from SFA.

(Personally, I think the new L should've made a 5 second call from half court. )

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'd love to see a video of the sequence before that. Specifically how the ND player ended up on the floor after engaging with #0 from SFA.

(Personally, I think the new L should've made a 5 second call from half court. )

Ha, i caught that. lets see that one again...

[Multiple Sports]

Were all three zebras Irish Catholic celebrating the holiday ??? SFA had no chance !!!!!

[just another ref]

As I recall, with the ball on the floor out of bounds, one player stepped out of bounds, then motioned to another to step out and make the throw-in. I'm thinking I would have started the count when the first player stepped out.

[Multiple Sports]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

It's one of those great circular rules and it's the same in NCAA and NFHS.


(The NCAAM's wording should be the same, though the rule #s might be slightly different)

So, the count begins when the ball is at the disposal...and the ball is at the disposal when it's available to a player and the count begins. I call it the chicken or the egg rule.

At any rate, common sense will play into a situation such as SFA/ND. SFA is getting its bearings after giving up an emotionally devastating FG. There was definitely a lot of time taken between the FG and a player retrieving the ball but that time also allowed ND to set up its defense. One could say the delay was more advantageous to ND since it was setting up its defense in front of its own bench while SFA's head coach was - at best - 66 feet away from the player making the throw-in.

JMF - You nailed this one perfectly. Let's keep out of this one as long as we possible can. Great game management !!!!!

[Rich]

Officiating is part art and part science.

There's probably thousands of officials who get the science right. Those that can also get the art right rise to the top.

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by Rich

Officiating is part art and part science.

There's probably thousands of officials who get the science right. Those that can also get the art right rise to the top.

I'm out. I can't sing or draw.

[just another ref]

When I posted the original question, I thought the ball was lying in plain sight the whole time. It wasn't. But from the reactions of everyone involved, I don't think it was ever not available. With all that in mind, I would have started a count when the first guy stepped out of bounds. I see nothing in the wording that makes that wrong. I also don't see whether the clock is running or stopped has anything to do with this rule. And I also don't know what a "deliberate" count is.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

... I would have started a count when the first guy stepped out of bounds. I see nothing in the wording that makes that wrong. I also don't see whether the clock is running or stopped has anything to do with this rule. And I also don't know what a "deliberate" count is.

It has everything to do with running/managing a game. Nobody (supervisor, coaches) wants an OOO in this situation. College supervisors do not like "gotcha" type of officials. They want some common sense and "good for the game" officiating decisions. They want officials who would JUDGE the ball was not at anyone's disposal at the point you would have started your count.

[LRZ]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It has everything to do with running/managing a game. Nobody (supervisor, coaches) wants an OOO in this situation.

Nobody--including your partner(s).

[Adam]

I just watched the video. In a high school game, I'm not even going to have a 5 second count because the clock will be running with under 5 seconds. In any stopped clock game, I'm doing exactly what these guys did.

Starting a count early here isn't doing anyone any good.