Another should this have been a TC foul--Duke v Yale

[Nevadaref]

Duke v Yale with 5.5 seconds left in the first half.

[Adam]

Is there learning value in this video clip if it's retrieved?

[Nevadaref]

The point is that people don't seem to think of these plays as TC fouls.
The action is a dribbler having the ball knocked away by a defender and then committing a foul prior to either player getting the ball.
I've now seen about four of these in the tournament. Having all of the clips will help stress the point to the officials in my local association.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The point is that people don't seem to think of these plays as TC fouls.
The action is a dribbler having the ball knocked away by a defender and then committing a foul prior to either player getting the ball.
I've now seen about four of these in the tournament. Having all of the clips will help stress the point to the officials in my local association.

My last game of the season we pre-gamed this.

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[JRutledge]

Peace

[Raymond]

Another one that should have been a TC foul.

[Sharpshooternes]

Yep


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[Rich]

I've deleted a bunch of posts.

Look, this site is officiating....and official...friendly.

This is not YouTube, this is not Facebook (although there are groups out there that don't tolerate this crap, either), this is not some other site where pointing out every mistake of every official is going to be tolerated.

If a video is posted, it should be for the purposes of making us all better officials. If it doesn't serve that purpose, then don't post about it.

Those who feel they need to post perceived errors with glee or an expression of schadenfreude or a "gotcha" mindset should just not bother.

Adam's posts were a specific response to a specific poster whose only purpose here was to point out all of the errors that he thought were made. It grew tiresome, we decided to end it, he ran a stop sign, he will return sometime after the Final Four. Anyone who wishes to join him on the RV can feel free to follow the same pattern.

[jpgc99]

Back to the video, I'm not seeing a foul here. While the ball is loose, I see two players going for the ball and making incidental contact. What is the illegal contact here?

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by jpgc99

Back to the video, I'm not seeing a foul here. While the ball is loose, I see two players going for the ball and making incidental contact. What is the illegal contact here?

I see white #3 having the ball knocked away. White #3 does not go immediately to the ball but instead holds black.

Especially in men's leagues, I have had players say that contact (such as pushing an opposing player) should not be a foul because it was a loose ball.

I believe the teaching point is that white still has team-control since black had not secured control. Therefore, a foul by white going for the loose ball is still a Team-Control foul and free throws should not have been awarded.

[jpgc99]

Originally Posted by JeffM

I see white #3 having the ball knocked away. White #3 does not go immediately to the ball but instead holds black.

Especially in men's leagues, I have had players say that contact (such as pushing an opposing player) should not be a foul because it was a loose ball.

I believe the teaching point is that white still has team-control since black had not secured control. Therefore, a foul by white going for the loose ball is still a Team-Control foul and free throws should not have been awarded.

Yes, I agree that if there is a foul it is a team-control foul, but I'm just not seeing the illegal contact from this angle. I don't see any impact to the other players freedom of movement.

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by jpgc99

Yes, I agree that if there is a foul it is a team-control foul, but I'm just not seeing the illegal contact from this angle. I don't see any impact to the other players freedom of movement.

He definitely was able to play through the contact.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jpgc99

Yes, I agree that if there is a foul it is a team-control foul, but I'm just not seeing the illegal contact from this angle. I don't see any impact to the other players freedom of movement.

Watching the video, I probably don't call that unless things have been getting chippy. Even then, though, this isn't likely a call that's going to clean up the game.

As for TC, I have to assume the official on the floor considered black to have gained control. It's dubious, and he may think otherwise looking at video.

[jpgc99]

Originally Posted by Adam

Watching the video, I probably don't call that unless things have been getting chippy. Even then, though, this isn't likely a call that's going to clean up the game.

As for TC, I have to assume the official on the floor considered black to have gained control. It's dubious, and he may think otherwise looking at video.

Yes, I agree with this. I'm really trying to spend time this off-season reviewing plays and differentiating between incidental contact and illegal contact. I think this is a great play to review, and it would be one that upon review, I would not want a whistle here, but I wanted to get other opinions.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jpgc99

Yes, I agree with this. I'm really trying to spend time this off-season reviewing plays and differentiating between incidental contact and illegal contact. I think this is a great play to review, and it would be one that upon review, I would not want a whistle here, but I wanted to get other opinions.

I think that's a great way to approach the play and video in general from NCAA games. I want to see these videos for two reasons.

1. To see how the folks working at that level are calling it.
But more importantly and more significantly:
2. To see more plays and be able to figure out angles and anticipate situations that can help me get into better position to make proper calls.

There's a third reason that stems from my baseball playing days in my youth. When I played baseball, I would anticipate plays in my head and what I would do with the ball if it was hit to me in certain situations. I would envision those plays so that when they happened, my body was reflexive. It reduced my response time. I get the same benefit from reviewing these types of plays.