Running out of bounds and returning

[thedewed]

in looking at college casebook, 149, 195, and 261 seem inconsistent. what if you start a dribble but leave court through momentum, can you come back in and be first to touch? the latter 2 of these illustrations seem inconsistent on this issue. the example where you can catch (and thus in control), then leave the ball on the court, go out of bounds via momentum, then come back in, is legal under 149 implies 'control' isn't a problem, but under 261 dribbling is?

[bob jenkins]

Assuming you are NOT leaving the court of your own volition, then it's not a violation to come back in and get the ball.

And, you're back in when one foot is in and the other is NOT out (so it's either in or in the air).

So, take the OOB part out of the plays.

Can a player touch the ball with two hands, leave the ball on the court, run a few steps, come back and get the ball? That's going to depend on whether the player had dribbled prior to this, and whether you consider the touch with two hands to be control, in which case the rest of the action is a dribble.

Similar analysis for the other plays.

[thedewed]

So are you saying that if you are dribbling and go out on momentum, you can't come back in and recover?

that last case example seems to say that the problem with dribbling, leaving, and coming back, was because it was of the player's own volition, not because he was dribbling.

if you catch (thus control) the ball, leave it in the court as you leave it through momentum, then come back in and touch, that appears to be clearly ok under those case examples.

can you use actual language of the books to support what you say?

having an argument with guys in a pick up game, and I'm still not sure about what the books actually say. It's not terribly clear.

thanks,

[thedewed]

so my take on reading all these 3 casebook examples is that the only time you would call a player for out of bounds while in player control is when he is actually in act of dribbling although not touching the ball when one of his feet actually last touched out of bounds. the example where a player can catch the ball while going out of bounds (thus player control) throws it back in bounds, and then goes and recovers is specifically in one of the examples, so even though that technically would be the start of a dribble, the act of intentionally throwing it down to the floor, and even though he was technically in player control the last time he touched it before releasing it in bounds, he still can go back and get it and continue dribbling, the only issues being potential traveling, double dribble, not going out of bounds as long as went out through momentum and natural basketball play. i have to say from observation that the majority of players don't understand that you can do that.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by thedewed

so my take on reading all these 3 casebook examples is that the only time you would call a player for out of bounds while in player control is when he is actually in act of dribbling although not touching the ball when one of his feet actually last touched out of bounds. the example where a player can catch the ball while going out of bounds (thus player control) throws it back in bounds, and then goes and recovers is specifically in one of the examples, so even though that technically would be the start of a dribble, the act of intentionally throwing it down to the floor, and even though he was technically in player control the last time he touched it before releasing it in bounds, he still can go back and get it and continue dribbling, the only issues being potential traveling, double dribble, not going out of bounds as long as went out through momentum and natural basketball play. i have to say from observation that the majority of players don't understand that you can do that.

Not quite as absolute as you make it.

That's not a surprise to anyone here.

[thedewed]

so why not absolute? when would you call a player for last to touch when in bounds, going out through momentum, and being first to touch when in bounds? I would think that the casebook example where he clearly has control of ball, leaves it, then returns, would cover everything other than actively dribbling while one foot is hitting out. when else?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by thedewed

so why not absolute? when would you call a player for last to touch when in bounds, going out through momentum, and being first to touch when in bounds? I would think that the casebook example where he clearly has control of ball, leaves it, then returns, would cover everything other than actively dribbling while one foot is hitting out. when else?

First, the example you give in this post is NOT what you said ion your previous post (it might be what you meant).

Second, when it's a dribbler (not an interrupted dribbler), the player commits an OOB violation as soon as s/he steps OOB, not when s/he touches the ball while OOB, or when s/he returns from OOB and touches the ball.

Third, going OOB (and returning) from "momentum" is allowed -- this would NOT (likely) be a dribbler.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by thedewed

So are you saying that if you are dribbling and go out on momentum, you can't come back in and recover?

that last case example seems to say that the problem with dribbling, leaving, and coming back, was because it was of the player's own volition, not because he was dribbling.

if you catch (thus control) the ball, leave it in the court as you leave it through momentum, then come back in and touch, that appears to be clearly ok under those case examples.

can you use actual language of the books to support what you say?

having an argument with guys in a pick up game, and I'm still not sure about what the books actually say. It's not terribly clear.

thanks,

No, if you're dribbling and step out of bounds, you're out of bounds immediately rather than when you retouch the ball. Now, if it's an interrupted dribble, that's different and legal.

If you're going to try to win an argument with guys from a pickup game, you're better off just buying a round of beer and moving on. But if you're going to try anyway, you'll need to start by settling on a rule set (NFHS, NCAA, FIBA, NBA) and a specific situation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

... if you're dribbling and step out of bounds, you're out of bounds immediately rather than when you retouch the ball. Now, if it's an interrupted dribble, that's different and legal.

9-3-1 Note: The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary,
even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds.

4-15: An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting
off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler. There is no
player control during an interrupted dribble. During an interrupted dribble:
Out-of-bounds violation does not apply on the player involved in the
interrupted dribble.

BillyMac's List: If a player's momentum carries him or her off the court, he, or she, can be the first player to touch the ball after returning inbounds. That player must not have left the court voluntarily, and must immediately return inbounds. That player must have something in, and nothing out. It is not necessary to have both feet back inbounds. It is a violation for a player to intentionally leave the court for an unauthorized reason.

[thedewed]

I've reffed at the D2 level men's before coaching my kids got in the way, and may return, and always want to know the specific rules. I don't have HS books anymore and can't find them online, so have just used the NCAA men's rules.

I guess the most likely scenario to need to know is the play where the player has possession and player control (obviously) with both hands, is leaving through momentum, intentionally leaves the ball on the court before going out, and then returns, and having not dribbled before. He CAN go back and be first to touch the ball, even though that was technically the start of his dribble, and if just continues his dribble that would be fine as well. So even though all of his acts were intentional, I guess you need to interpret it as an interrupted dribble?

It is also very subjective on the dribbling while touching. Obviously the only time that happens the player abandons the ball before going out, probably intentional, to avoid the oob call. So is that an interrupted dribble and thus he can come back in and retrieve? Or is it a violation for touching out of bounds while dribbling. I appreciate all of your thoughts.

It's not a bet, but it is a situation where I would like to have a clear understanding of what sets of facts are considered oob and which aren't. If someone could speak to the HS interpretation that would be great. If you guys actually officiate, I'd think you'd really want it to be clear for yourselves. Thanks,

[jpgc99]

Originally Posted by thedewed

I've reffed at the D2 level men's before coaching my kids got in the way, and may return, and always want to know the specific rules. I don't have HS books anymore and can't find them online, so have just used the NCAA men's rules.

I guess the most likely scenario to need to know is the play where the player has possession and player control (obviously) with both hands, is leaving through momentum, intentionally leaves the ball on the court before going out, and then returns, and having not dribbled before. He CAN go back and be first to touch the ball, even though that was technically the start of his dribble, and if just continues his dribble that would be fine as well. So even though all of his acts were intentional, I guess you need to interpret it as an interrupted dribble?

It is also very subjective on the dribbling while touching. Obviously the only time that happens the player abandons the ball before going out, probably intentional, to avoid the oob call. So is that an interrupted dribble and thus he can come back in and retrieve? Or is it a violation for touching out of bounds while dribbling. I appreciate all of your thoughts.

It's not a bet, but it is a situation where I would like to have a clear understanding of what sets of facts are considered oob and which aren't. If someone could speak to the HS interpretation that would be great. If you guys actually officiate, I'd think you'd really want it to be clear for yourselves. Thanks,

It is clear for us, and anyone that officiates at the D2 level also understands this.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by thedewed

I've reffed at the D2 level men's ...

And you don't understand the principles of OOB or inbounds? It's not rocket science and as others have pointed out is very simple.

Did you actually ref D2 games or intramurals in a D2 school? I ask this because I can't for the love of me seeing an official that does HS varsity or higher NOT get this.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by thedewed

I've reffed at the D2 level men's ...If you guys actually officiate, I'd think you'd really want it to be clear for yourselves. Thanks,

If you've actually ref'd at the D2 level and have been coaching since, the OOB rules haven't changed, and they are the same for college and HS.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by thedewed

I guess the most likely scenario to need to know is the play where the player has possession and player control (obviously) with both hands, is leaving through momentum, intentionally leaves the ball on the court before going out, and then returns, and having not dribbled before. He CAN go back and be first to touch the ball, even though that was technically the start of his dribble, and if just continues his dribble that would be fine as well. So even though all of his acts were intentional, I guess you need to interpret it as an interrupted dribble?

Those two statements are contradictory. That might be the cause of your misunderstanding.

[thedewed]

true, his leaving the court isn't intentional because left through momentum, but his leaving the ball is intentional, as he realizes he is leaving the court and intentionally drops the ball in bounds. Here is the issue in my mind: do we just set aside the issue that that is the start of a dribble? It doesn't neatly fit into the 'interrupted dribble' definition, as the ball didn't 'momentarily get away from the dribbler'. that in my mind implies no intent. yet the casebook seems to clearly allow this as an exception, even though he had player control when he left the court and intentionally started his dribble. Given that, my conclusion is that anytime he leaves through momentum, through a basketball play, however you want to describe it, and isn't actively dribbling the ball whether touching it or not as he leaves the court, then he can come back in and be the first to touch, both in high school and college.

I thought I understood the rule before this happened actually playing, and as I dug into the books I realized it was more complicated than I thought. If it happened in a game that I was officiating, I would have a very loose interpretation if someone was dribbling as they went OOB, versus an interrupted dribble. If they had abandoned the ball in any way, even if intentional in the abandonment but was leaving involuntarily, I would rule that they can come back in and be the first to touch.

Than you Bob for your reasoned response to the issues at hand.