elbow

[egj13]

Originally Posted by benbret

a hard elbow.

What exactly is a "hard elbow"...I picture a defender up on him, he gets irritated and tries to clear space so he throws an elbow into the chest of the defender...this close?

If so, I would call a PC and go the other way...no reason to get too wrapped up in intent.

Now I could see going with something more stringent if there were words spoken, a stare down, etc. to support the measurement of "intent" but if not, just get a PC, clean up the play and move on with the game.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by egj13

What exactly is a "hard elbow"...I picture a defender up on him, he gets irritated and tries to clear space so he throws an elbow into the chest of the defender...this close?

If so, I would call a PC and go the other way...no reason to get too wrapped up in intent.

Now I could see going with something more stringent if there were words spoken, a stare down, etc. to support the measurement of "intent" but if not, just get a PC, clean up the play and move on with the game.

The player involved did not have the ball so it can't be PC.

[egj13]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The player involved did not have the ball so it can't be PC.

That would have been a good detail to catch on my part

[deecee]

Originally Posted by egj13

What exactly is a "hard elbow"...I picture a defender up on him, he gets irritated and tries to clear space so he throws an elbow into the chest of the defender...this close?

If so, I would call a PC and go the other way...no reason to get too wrapped up in intent.

Now I could see going with something more stringent if there were words spoken, a stare down, etc. to support the measurement of "intent" but if not, just get a PC, clean up the play and move on with the game.

Throwing an elbow into anyone is at minimum an intentional foul. We have been instructed over the past several years to clean up elbow contact, especially to the head area.I do not need to wait to "see" if anything further transpires here to "upgrade" my foul. This behavior is unacceptable and is not a wait and see what happens.

The best way to avoid "wait and see" moments is to get the right call at the right time and control the game. Which is essentially our job description.

[egj13]

Originally Posted by deecee

Throwing an elbow into anyone is at minimum an intentional foul. We have been instructed over the past several years to clean up elbow contact, especially to the head area.I do not need to wait to "see" if anything further transpires here to "upgrade" my foul. This behavior is unacceptable and is not a wait and see what happens.

The best way to avoid "wait and see" moments is to get the right call at the right time and control the game. Which is essentially our job description.

So why can't a PC be called (in my situation...I realize I missed in the OP that he didn't have the ball)? That isn't a wait and see approach, it is getting the call right away and cleaning it up, an elbow in the chest absolutely is not a mandatory intentional (unless you don't have the ball as in the OP).

[Adam]

The play I'm picturing is an easy IPF, with the intentional use of the elbow to clear space. We call common fouls all the time when they use their hands to push off, but the elbow is sufficient escalation of this practice. Call the IPF and it'll clean up much faster.

[just another ref]

And for anyone who may not know, in spite of the name, it is possible to commit an intentional foul by accident.

I much prefer NCAA terms. FF1 and FF2

[deecee]

Originally Posted by egj13

So why can't a PC be called (in my situation...I realize I missed in the OP that he didn't have the ball)? That isn't a wait and see approach, it is getting the call right away and cleaning it up, an elbow in the chest absolutely is not a mandatory intentional (unless you don't have the ball as in the OP).

An elbow in the chest MAY not be an IPF, however the majority of contact by an elbow probably is intentional and it's just not being called correctly.

[crosscountry55]

I like this thread because there are a lot of good teaching points being brought up about what the calling options are for the official. But there's another aspect we haven't talked about yet which can be equally confusing to newer officials. Administration!

I'm going to assume like many others, that, based on description, this is an IPF committed by an offensive player in the low post. So you make the call. Now you have some work to do in the "presence of mind" department, i.e. don't make a bee line to the table.

1. Go to the scene, be a presence, and prevent further BS from occurring. Get the fist up first. Worry about crossed arms later.

2. Though the offender was an offensive player, this is an IPF vice a team control foul, so FTs are in order. But unlike a technical (this is part of the reason it's important to know the difference between the two), the coach can't send just anyone to the FT line on the other end. The player who was fouled must shoot. So make sure you and your partners ID him/her before you go report the foul.

3. Trudge to the other end. Fouled player shoots two. Now, for the love of Mary Struckhoff, PLEASE don't go administer the throw-in at the division line. I saw a D1 college crew do this after a low-post FF1 recently. Made me cringe. For an IPF, the spot is the OOB location nearest where the foul occurred. So in our case, this is where it gets weird. We went to the other end to shoot FTs, right? Now we go back to Team A's end and give Team B a throw-in under A's basket (nearest where the foul occurred), and then B has to go all the way back up the court.

As the Granger guy says, "Get it? Got it? Good."

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I like this thread because there are a lot of good teaching points being brought up about what the calling options are for the official. But there's another aspect we haven't talked about yet which can be equally confusing to newer officials. Administration!

I'm going to assume like many others, that, based on description, this is an IPF committed by an offensive player in the low post. So you make the call. Now you have some work to do in the "presence of mind" department, i.e. don't make a bee line to the table.

1. Go to the scene, be a presence, and prevent further BS from occurring. Get the fist up first. Worry about crossed arms later.

2. Though the offender was an offensive player, this is an IPF vice a team control foul, so FTs are in order. But unlike a technical (this is part of the reason it's important to know the difference between the two), the coach can't send just anyone to the FT line on the other end. The player who was fouled must shoot. So make sure you and your partners ID him/her before you go report the foul.

3. Trudge to the other end. Fouled player shoots two. Now, for the love of Mary Struckhoff, PLEASE don't go administer the throw-in at the division line. I saw a D1 college crew do this after a low-post FF1 recently. Made me cringe. For an IPF, the spot is the OOB location nearest where the foul occurred. So in our case, this is where it gets weird. We went to the other end to shoot FTs, right? Now we go back to Team A's end and give Team B a throw-in under A's basket (nearest where the foul occurred), and then B has to go all the way back up the court.

As the Granger guy says, "Get it? Got it? Good."

Good post. It's important to remember that when you get calls like this to not be in a rush to do things, and instead be sure to do it right. I especially like your point about getting in there and stopping anything from happening before you get caught up in the IPF reporting procedure.