elbow

[benbret]

NFHS Boys Varsity. Team A has ball in the corner #34 Team A and # 21 Team B are at the the foul line. #21 is attempting to guard #34. #34 does not like it and hits #21 in the chest with a hard elbow. Referee did not think it was flagrant but a foul needed to be called. Could you call a technical foul under Rule10-1-8 for an unsporting foul? Should you call a common foul or an intentional foul.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by benbret

NFHS Boys Varsity. Team A has ball in the corner #34 Team A and # 21 Team B are at the the foul line. #21 is attempting to guard #34. #34 does not like it and hits #21 in the chest with a hard elbow. Referee did not think it was flagrant but a foul needed to be called. Could you call a technical foul under Rule10-1-8 for an unsporting foul? Should you call a common foul or an intentional foul.

The contact, if illegal cannot be a TF because the Ball was Live when the contact occurred. That said, if the Official, in his judgement thinks the contact was illegal, he must decide if it is a CF, and IPF, or FPF.

MTD, Sr.

[packersowner]

Based on that scenario, I am calling an intentional foul. Intent is hard to measure, but based on your choice of words, there was intent to use the elbow to make contact. If the same contact had happened above the shoulders, I am inclined to go flagrant. I struggle with the common fouls in these situations, I think the wording has always been a little confusing.

[Adam]

Pretty easy IPF, to me.

[deecee]

Live ball contact you only have 3 options

Common foul
Intentional Foul
Flagrant Foul

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by deecee

Live ball contact you only have 3 options

Common foul
Intentional Foul
Flagrant Foul

No call.

[griblets]

Originally Posted by deecee

Live ball contact you only have 3 options

Common foul
Intentional Foul
Flagrant Foul

Great thread. Had a similar situation earlier this week in which our crew called it a technical foul (EDIT: intentional shove in the back during live play). I have since researched the foul rules more in depth and learned why a technical foul is not an option. The rule citations that helped me may help others:

4-19-5b defines a technical foul as a noncontact foul by a player.

4-19-5c defines the intentional technical foul, which requires the ball to be dead.

4-19-14 defines an unsporting foul as noncontact technical foul.

Thanks for starting this discussion!

[egj13]

Originally Posted by benbret

a hard elbow.

What exactly is a "hard elbow"...I picture a defender up on him, he gets irritated and tries to clear space so he throws an elbow into the chest of the defender...this close?

If so, I would call a PC and go the other way...no reason to get too wrapped up in intent.

Now I could see going with something more stringent if there were words spoken, a stare down, etc. to support the measurement of "intent" but if not, just get a PC, clean up the play and move on with the game.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by egj13

What exactly is a "hard elbow"...I picture a defender up on him, he gets irritated and tries to clear space so he throws an elbow into the chest of the defender...this close?

If so, I would call a PC and go the other way...no reason to get too wrapped up in intent.

Now I could see going with something more stringent if there were words spoken, a stare down, etc. to support the measurement of "intent" but if not, just get a PC, clean up the play and move on with the game.

The player involved did not have the ball so it can't be PC.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by egj13

What exactly is a "hard elbow"...I picture a defender up on him, he gets irritated and tries to clear space so he throws an elbow into the chest of the defender...this close?

If so, I would call a PC and go the other way...no reason to get too wrapped up in intent.

Now I could see going with something more stringent if there were words spoken, a stare down, etc. to support the measurement of "intent" but if not, just get a PC, clean up the play and move on with the game.

Throwing an elbow into anyone is at minimum an intentional foul. We have been instructed over the past several years to clean up elbow contact, especially to the head area.I do not need to wait to "see" if anything further transpires here to "upgrade" my foul. This behavior is unacceptable and is not a wait and see what happens.

The best way to avoid "wait and see" moments is to get the right call at the right time and control the game. Which is essentially our job description.

[egj13]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The player involved did not have the ball so it can't be PC.

That would have been a good detail to catch on my part

[egj13]

Originally Posted by deecee

Throwing an elbow into anyone is at minimum an intentional foul. We have been instructed over the past several years to clean up elbow contact, especially to the head area.I do not need to wait to "see" if anything further transpires here to "upgrade" my foul. This behavior is unacceptable and is not a wait and see what happens.

The best way to avoid "wait and see" moments is to get the right call at the right time and control the game. Which is essentially our job description.

So why can't a PC be called (in my situation...I realize I missed in the OP that he didn't have the ball)? That isn't a wait and see approach, it is getting the call right away and cleaning it up, an elbow in the chest absolutely is not a mandatory intentional (unless you don't have the ball as in the OP).

[Adam]

The play I'm picturing is an easy IPF, with the intentional use of the elbow to clear space. We call common fouls all the time when they use their hands to push off, but the elbow is sufficient escalation of this practice. Call the IPF and it'll clean up much faster.

[just another ref]

And for anyone who may not know, in spite of the name, it is possible to commit an intentional foul by accident.

I much prefer NCAA terms. FF1 and FF2

[deecee]

Originally Posted by egj13

So why can't a PC be called (in my situation...I realize I missed in the OP that he didn't have the ball)? That isn't a wait and see approach, it is getting the call right away and cleaning it up, an elbow in the chest absolutely is not a mandatory intentional (unless you don't have the ball as in the OP).

An elbow in the chest MAY not be an IPF, however the majority of contact by an elbow probably is intentional and it's just not being called correctly.