Illegal substitution?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

What if the kid gets half way to the cluster of players lining up for a spot throw-in on the end line and coach calls him back? I don't see any way to demand someone come off. No one exited, so no one has to "sit a tick."

Until someone actually exits the court, I'm not convinced there's anything to enforce.

We have the rule that says the sub becomes a player when he legally enters and the other person becomes bench personnel at that moment. True we don't know who he intended to go in for but we know he IS a player now. We also have the case play above which talks about 3 subs going in and not reporting who they r going in for. Fight starts among original players on court. Play says assume those involved were bench personnel if we can't figure out who specifically they were coming in for. 3.3.1 f.

I think if he comes all way to the end line throw I would make somebody else come off. Tell coach to choose. I do think that is what rule requires.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

We have the rule that says the sub becomes a player when he legally enters and the other person becomes bench personnel at that moment. True we don't know who he intended to go in for but we know he IS a player now. We also have the case play above which talks about 3 subs going in and not reporting who they r going in for. Fight starts among original players on court. Play says assume those involved were bench personnel if we can't figure out who specifically they were coming in for. 3.3.1 f.

I think if he comes all way to the end line throw I would make somebody else come off. Tell coach to choose. I do think that is what rule requires.

I disagree, and if I was the coach, I'd tell you to pick a player if you pushed it. If the other coach whines, I'd simply tell him since no player left the court, there's no one for whom we can enforce 3-3-4. I think anything more is just looking for trouble where we don't need to.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

I disagree, and if I was the coach, I'd tell you to pick a player if you pushed it. If the other coach whines, I'd simply tell him since no player left the court, there's no one for whom we can enforce 3-3-4. I think anything more is just looking for trouble where we don't need to.

I'd pick your best player. Frankly, I'd ask the kid who he was coming in for. If he and table didn't know I'd ask the coach and tell him when the sub entered he became a player. one of the 5 became a sub. You pick. I'm not worried about anybody whining. I don't think it would be a big deal for him to follow through on his original plan.

[deecee]

I think this has been said before, but just grant the TO and let the subs work themselves out during the TO.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by deecee

I think this has been said before, but just grant the TO and let the subs work themselves out during the TO.

Adam and I were discussing regular substitution. Timeout wasn't involved in what we were talking about.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I'd pick your best player. Frankly, I'd ask the kid who he was coming in for. If he and table didn't know I'd ask the coach and tell him when the sub entered he became a player. one of the 5 became a sub. You pick. I'm not worried about anybody whining. I don't think it would be a big deal for him to follow through on his original plan.

Things may have changed enough he doesn't want to. I can't see a way to force it.

I'm looking at it this way. If he refuses top identify which player was to be subbed out, and A6 follows his coach's lead, are you prepared to follow through with a technical foul? I don't mind Ts, and I don't mind the paper work that comes with them, but this would be a tough sell around here.

You might be right, the coach would likely comply, so my guideline is theoretical.

Even if he complied, then took the time to complain to my assigner, I think I'd lose that battle.

[BigCat]

I'm now a passenger in a car w my 16 year old daughter. I will get back to you later....if I'm still alive...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I'm now a passenger in a car w my 16 year old daughter. I will get back to you later....if I'm still alive...

So ... wouldn't you have liked to leave even after you had been beckoned into and entered the car?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

So ... wouldn't you have liked to leave even after you had been beckoned into and entered the car?

Absolutely!...my daughter also would have liked me to leave. She doesn't appreciate the free driving lessons I offer...constantly...,

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I'm now a passenger in a car w my 16 year old daughter. I will get back to you later....if I'm still alive...

Mine is 15. I don't want to hear any of your stories.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

Mine is 15. I don't want to hear any of your stories.

Buy plenty of insurance....get a stress test to be sure your heart can handle it...

Almost forgot most important thing...when it comes time to practice parking....send her w mom or grandparents....

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Adam

I disagree, and if I was the coach, I'd tell you to pick a player if you pushed it. If the other coach whines, I'd simply tell him since no player left the court, there's no one for whom we can enforce 3-3-4. I think anything more is just looking for trouble where we don't need to.

Wrong again. Leaving the court is not a requirement for ceasing to be a player.
The rule very clearly states when the player becomes bench personnel.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Wrong again. Leaving the court is not a requirement for ceasing to be a player.
The rule very clearly states when the player becomes bench personnel.

You're right, but are you going to enforce 3-3-4 in this case. Remember, you have no idea who A6 was coming in for. No one does, since it was never announced before he was recalled by his coach.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Adam

You're right, but are you going to enforce 3-3-4 in this case. Remember, you have no idea who A6 was coming in for. No one does, since it was never announced before he was recalled by his coach.

Not sure how long you've been officiating, but when I started subs reporting to the table had to state their own number plus the number of the player being replaced. This requirement was dropped a few years into my officiating time.
This made such situations clearer and enforcement simple. Sadly the NFHS opted to be less precise.

The guiding principle has to be that there are always five players, other than during an intermission or if fewer are eligible. So when a sub enters and becomes a player one of the previous five ceases to be. Yes, I would enforce that rule. I would charge a technical foul if needed.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Not sure how long you've been officiating, but when I started subs reporting to the table had to state their own number plus the number of the player being replaced. This requirement was dropped a few years into my officiating time.
This made such situations clearer and enforcement simple. Sadly the NFHS opted to be less precise.

The guiding principle has to be that there are always five players, other than during an intermission or if fewer are eligible. So when a sub enters and becomes a player one of the previous five ceases to be. Yes, I would enforce that rule. I would charge a technical foul if needed.

I think you're a little older than I am, but I remember reporting the number of the player I was going in for when I played in the late 80s and early 90s. I started officiating, without really knowing what I was doing, in the '92-93 season. I honestly have no idea if it was the rule then, but by the time I picked it up seriously around 2000, I'm pretty sure it had gone the way of the "raise your hand when you foul" rule.

Did the NFHS comment on their reasoning for dropping the requirement?

I was thinking about that old rule during this conversation, but I was thinking that 3-3-4 becomes virtually impossible to enforce in the OP now that the rule has been dropped. I wonder if that was intentional?