Illegal substitution?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Last comment for me...I think. A6 became a player, you have acknowledged. The other end of the rule says the other player became bench personnel the moment A6 became a player. One of A1-5 became bench personnel. I guess I don't understand why it bothers you to say "coach, somebody has to come out because when A6 became a player somebody became bench personnel. The coach sent A6 in for somebody, didn't pull him back, let him enter and go to end line throw in area. I'd say coach it's too late to simply pull him back. I don't think coach would give you hard time. If he did over this there would likely be other issues. The rule clearly says somebody becomes bench personnel when A6 becomes a player. Take care.

I agree with this post and would handle the situation this way.

[Rich]

I'd report the timeout and let the team sort out which 5 they wanted on the floor.

I've got bigger fish to fry, to be honest.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Last comment for me...I think. A6 became a player, you have acknowledged. The other end of the rule says the other player became bench personnel the moment A6 became a player. One of A1-5 became bench personnel. I guess I don't understand why it bothers you to say "coach, somebody has to come out because when A6 became a player somebody became bench personnel. The coach sent A6 in for somebody, didn't pull him back, let him enter and go to end line throw in area. I'd say coach it's too late to simply pull him back. I don't think coach would give you hard time. If he did over this there would likely be other issues. The rule clearly says somebody becomes bench personnel when A6 becomes a player. Take care.

The one change to this is that he can withdraw A6 for A7, but will still have to withdraw someone from A1-A5.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'd report the timeout and let the team sort out which 5 they wanted on the floor.

I've got bigger fish to fry, to be honest.

Me too. This is all so silly.

[ODog]

I'm wayyyyy late to the party here, but my question arising from this thread isn't so much about the "who's coming out" aspect. It's about the reporting aspect.

What I've learned from this is that something most officials on our board do is probably something we shouldn't be doing:
Sub is at the table, team calls timeout. Official heads to the reporting area, reports the timeout, instructs timer to start the clock, says "Sub(s), you're good" and beckons, then heads to the timeout position and the rest is history.

I'm getting the impression this isn't the best idea. What do you guys do? Report the timeout, ignore the sub at the table, then just see what happens when the timeout is over? Is the theory that this kid has already "reported," and since we're now in a TO, he won't need to be beckoned when play resumes?

How does that approach eliminate the possibility of the OP, when the sub never enters the court following the TO and the opposing coach takes issue? Do we make the sub report before the warning horn?

I can get behind this and will start doing this tonight, I just want to make sure I'm understanding it properly.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'd report the timeout and let the team sort out which 5 they wanted on the floor.

I've got bigger fish to fry, to be honest.

What we were talking about at this point was a substitute reporting, being beckoned, entering, and walking to the end line for an end line throw in. Then the coach changing his mind. There is no timeout involved.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by ODog

I'm wayyyyy late to the party here, but my question arising from this thread isn't so much about the "who's coming out" aspect. It's about the reporting aspect.

What I've learned from this is that something most officials on our board do is probably something we shouldn't be doing:
Sub is at the table, team calls timeout. Official heads to the reporting area, reports the timeout, instructs timer to start the clock, says "Sub(s), you're good" and beckons, then heads to the timeout position and the rest is history.

I'm getting the impression this isn't the best idea. What do you guys do? Report the timeout, ignore the sub at the table, then just see what happens when the timeout is over? Is the theory that this kid has already "reported," and since we're now in a TO, he won't need to be beckoned when play resumes?

How does that approach eliminate the possibility of the OP, when the sub never enters the court following the TO and the opposing coach takes issue? Do we make the sub report before the warning horn?

I can get behind this and will start doing this tonight, I just want to make sure I'm understanding it properly.

Personally, I do the part in bold. If I see a kid report after the first horn, I won't let them in. That's about all for me. Others may do things differently.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BigCat

What we were talking about at this point was a substitute reporting, being beckoned, entering, and walking to the end line for an end line throw in. Then the coach changing his mind. There is no timeout involved.

If the coach sends a sub in and at this point there are 6 players on the court and the coach changes his mind and says oops i want that sub back on the bench I'm ok with that. If a player has walked off the court and the coach changes his mind, then the sub can leave but the player that stepped off has to wait and a new player must be made available.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by deecee

If the coach sends a sub in and at this point there are 6 players on the court and the coach changes his mind and says oops i want that sub back on the bench I'm ok with that. If a player has walked off the court and the coach changes his mind, then the sub can leave but the player that stepped off has to wait and a new player must be made available.

1. By definition there cannot ever be six players for one team. Five is the maximum.
2. You are making up your own rule for the player departing. The NFHS rule has been quoted several times in this thread. Your thinking as an official is just pathetic.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'd report the timeout and let the team sort out which 5 they wanted on the floor.

I've got bigger fish to fry, to be honest.

Do you also allow the teams to start whomever they wish despite what was submitted at the ten minute mark?

Do you also take the same position for intermissions? You don't care which five were in the game at the end of the previous quarter even though the NFHS recently instructed officials to pay attention to this!?!?

You are setting a poor example for the officials you assign.

[Rich]

Do you check the book at halftime and ensure those who were in the game at halftime return to start the second half?

I'm willing to bet scorers don't all track that. In 29 years I've never once seen a team argue that subs were improper after halftime.

I have denied subs entry, but those are ones who come to the table after a warning horn OR try to reenter without sitting a tick.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

Can you supply rule on that. This is a big argument in our chapter meeting right now.

There is no rule regarding wishing forum members good luck.

What are you actually asking here?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Rich

Do you check the book at halftime and ensure those who were in the game at halftime return to start the second half?

I'm willing to bet scorers don't all track that. In 29 years I've never once seen a team argue that subs were improper after halftime.

I have denied subs entry, but those are ones who come to the table after a warning horn OR try to reenter without sitting a tick.

If I am aware of the situation or am made aware by the scorer, I would enforce the rule. For example, if I know that a certain player was in the game because he made a buzzer beater at the end of the previous quarter or fouled near the horn, I look to see if that kid starts the next quarter unless properly substituted.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If I am aware of the situation or am made aware by the scorer, I would enforce the rule. For example, if I know that a certain player was in the game because he made a buzzer beater at the end of the previous quarter or fouled near the horn, I look to see if that kid starts the next quarter unless properly substituted.

How do you know if he's been properly substituted? A team representative merely has to tell the scorer -- and this may happen when I'm not looking.

Do you actually go over and ask the scorer? As the R, I'm going to the division line and one of the Us is retrieving a ball for me.

I have no problem with the rule -- I just have a problem with the feasibility of enforcing it without looking like an OOO.

[Adam]

This thread has run its course and devolved into personal attacks enough times that it is now closed.

Say goodnight Gracie