Legitimate Play?

[Gaiteka]

I am a new referee (only started at the end of last year). I ref in Australia at our local association, therefore we use 2-man mechanics and FIBA rules (not that this is a rule question).

So one of my 5 games last night was the highest level game of the night. (Men's B Grade). One of the players on team A has a history of being a hassle in the game, so my partner and I discuss that before hand and try to keep an eye on it. The game goes reasonable well for the first half. Near the end of the first half, the previously mentioned player, lets call him A1, starts yapping to B1 whilst he is preparing to take his free throws. My partner gives a stern warning to stop the chatter or they can both sit on the bench. After the final free throw, A2 shoves B2 with 2 hands in the back and I call an unsportsmanlike foul (equivalent of a FF1 I believe?). Most of the second half goes down fine, until another player from team A goes to save a ball from going out of bounds, grabs it, turns around and throws it off the head of a team B player with considerable force. I called this as a technical foul and team A protested that this was a legitimate basketball move as he was trying to retain possession of the ball.

I just wanted to ask your opinion on the matter as more experienced referees. Would you consider this a technical foul like I did? I would have let it go if the ball made contact with another part of the body, but it seemed to be deliberately aimed at the head. The game was getting heated and I thought it was best not to permit this type of play.
All opinions welcome

[Dad]

Deliberately aimed at the head with considerable force sounds like a good T. Throwing the ball off of someone is a legitimate play, but there's a case study on an officials judgement if they, say, throw it as hard as they can, purposely, at someone's head.

I've never had this happen in a game, but I can't see letting it go... especially in a situation where players are already on edge pushing and yacking away.

TLDR: Sounds like you made a judgement call and it was the right one.

[Adam]

Here (US, NFHS rules), if you think a player is intentionally aiming the ball at someone's head, a flagrant foul (NCAA FF2) is in order and the player would be disqualified. In other words, he's lucky you let him continue playing.

I wouldn't have.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Adam

Here (US, NFHS rules), if you think a player is intentionally aiming the ball at someone's head, a flagrant foul (NCAA FF2) is in order and the player would be disqualified. In other words, he's lucky you let him continue playing.

I wouldn't have.

I agree. Had something like this happen about six years ago - JV boys game, player with an attitude didn't like it when my partner called a travel on him. When I asked him for the ball, he turned and threw it as hard as he could straight at my head from about 10 feet away. I managed to knock the ball away enough it didn't hit me in the face, then hit him with a flagrant T.

[Pantherdreams]

This is really a had to be there. Basically my rule of thumb would be if in the attempt to save the player has enough body control to pick a target, then if they target the head its a problem. If they are just trying to make a play and throw it hard and while off balance or off aim it hits them in the head I'll probably let it pass. Hard to determine intent but time/balance/control all come into play here for me.

On unrelated note I dislike the FIBA rule change to make the tech less punitive then the unsportsmanlike.

[DrPete]

A similar play I had years ago in my early ref days still bothers me.
Situation: OOB throw in right in front of bench, with no room on sideline so I backed the defender three feet...... All good so far. Thrower could not find an open team mate so at about four seconds on my count, threw the ball hard at the sideline defender's leg, defender seemed to crouch down and the ball hit him in the groin, painfully. Player went down as ball went out of bounds again, player taken out of the game. Huddled with my partner, and neither of us had anything in the way of a unsporting of flagrant foul. My mistake was standing too close to the play to get a full look at what happened. Explained to the coach that it looked like a legitimate basketball play, but was just ugly. I wanted to go with a tech, but couldn't justify it in my head.
He definitely had control and was not just trying to bat the ball off of an opponent while going OOB, I would have nothing in that situation.

What would you guys do?


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[frezer11]

Originally Posted by DrPete

A similar play I had years ago in my early ref days still bothers me.
Situation: OOB throw in right in front of bench, with no room on sideline so I backed the defender three feet...... All good so far. Thrower could not find an open team mate so at about four seconds on my count, threw the ball hard at the sideline defender's leg, defender seemed to crouch down and the ball hit him in the groin, painfully. Player went down as ball went out of bounds again, player taken out of the game. Huddled with my partner, and neither of us had anything in the way of a unsporting of flagrant foul. My mistake was standing too close to the play to get a full look at what happened. Explained to the coach that it looked like a legitimate basketball play, but was just ugly. I wanted to go with a tech, but couldn't justify it in my head.
He definitely had control and was not just trying to bat the ball off of an opponent while going OOB, I would have nothing in that situation.

What would you guys do?


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For the saved ball or perhaps the throw-in with the count at 4 or so, and the inbounder is trying to save himself, if he throws it at the knees, we're all good. Every now and again, that throw creeps up a little higher than the knees. Whenever that happens, I'll just casually say to the inbounder, "I know you're making a smart play, but help a brother out, don't aim for the jewels, ok?" I almost always get a chuckle and compliance.

As far as what if it actually hits the target? Tough to say, but I think if I have doubt as to whether it was intentionally aimed there, then I've got nothing, and I'll talk a coach down if necessary.

[bob jenkins]

all you can do is use your judgment. You did. :shrug:

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Adam

Here (US, NFHS rules), if you think a player is intentionally aiming the ball at someone's head, a flagrant foul (NCAA FF2) is in order and the player would be disqualified. In other words, he's lucky you let him continue playing.

I wouldn't have.

Yup, this. I hope I'd do the same and not just give a T.

[Gaiteka]

Thanks for all of your insight into the issue. If any of you are wondering about after the call...

Team A asked why it was a technical, so I explained my call as such "It was a deliberately aimed shot at the head of an opponent, and that is not a legitimate sporting play". They continued to protest their point, so I walked over to my partner and the supervisor of the night came over to the court to stand with us. My partner had called another tech on a different Team A player for saying something, i am not sure what. The supervisor told the players that were still arguing, that they have asked their question, they got an answer, and they must return to their bench or they will be asked to leave. All but one did return to their bench, the supervisor then removed this player from the game and the building.

Thankyou for all your feedback, it was only my second technical as a referee and I was concerned that I did not handle it as I should have. However, you have all reassured me. I plan to stay on the forum for a while to come now , hope you all don't too annoyed with me

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Gaiteka

Thanks for all of your insight into the issue. If any of you are wondering about after the call...

Team A asked why it was a technical, so I explained my call as such "It was a deliberately aimed shot at the head of an opponent, and that is not a legitimate sporting play". They continued to protest their point, so I walked over to my partner and the supervisor of the night came over to the court to stand with us. My partner had called another tech on a different Team A player for saying something, i am not sure what. The supervisor told the players that were still arguing, that they have asked their question, they got an answer, and they must return to their bench or they will be asked to leave. All but one did return to their bench, the supervisor then removed this player from the game and the building.

Thankyou for all your feedback, it was only my second technical as a referee and I was concerned that I did not handle it as I should have. However, you have all reassured me. I plan to stay on the forum for a while to come now , hope you all don't too annoyed with me

Its really a had to be there situation but based on everything you've shared I agree with the call and like your explanation to the players.

I know recreation leagues (if that is indeed what Men's B Grade is) in Australia are likely different than here in the states but getting supervisor support like that is not always the case here. Especially in men's recreation leagues.

So its great to hear that you have a supervisor who supports his officials and takes care of business on the spot.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Gaiteka

...it was only my second technical as a referee

So, you've only reffed a total of about 3 minutes?

[Gaiteka]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

So, you've only reffed a total of about 3 minutes?

I have just been lucky enough to have avoided the difficult games thus far. I started doing mostly junior games, from 8-18 years of age. And the most I have had to do so far in these games is give out warnings.

Also,
Could someone please tell me the ages of the type of games mentioned in other threads. I mean, what age are the players in varsity games etc. I apologize for not being familar with these, but I think it will help my understanding.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Gaiteka

Also,

Could someone please tell me the ages of the type of games mentioned in other threads. I mean, what age are the players in varsity games etc. I apologize for not being familar with these, but I think it will help my understanding.

In the U.S., varsity is the A team from a given school, ages 15-18. JV would be like a B team from same school, ages ~15-16. "Middle school" is ages ~11-14.


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[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Gaiteka

I have just been lucky enough to have avoided the difficult games thus far. I started doing mostly junior games, from 8-18 years of age. And the most I have had to do so far in these games is give out warnings.

Take posts from Padgett with a shaker full of salt. He's our resident smart-ass and TV trivia guru.

Welcome to the forum and officiating basketball by the way!