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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reffish View Post
Yeah, team control foul. No FTs for Team B. Ball OOB nearest foul.
And if it wasn't a TC foul (say it happened just before A1 got the ball), the it would be ignored if not intentional and an intentional technical if not ignored.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
And if it wasn't a TC foul (say it happened just before A1 got the ball), the it would be ignored if not intentional and an intentional technical if not ignored.
and with that I'm more embarrassed.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:36pm
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Although your moniker says Stubborn Member, you do a fine job of accepting responsibility.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrStBballRef View Post
Sometimes the only way to learn from a mistake is to screw it up royally first. You won't be the first or last official to ever do this too
I had this happen earlier this season when I misapplied the exception to the backcourt throw-in rule. Once I saw that I was wrong per the case play with my exact same scenario, I told myself, I guarantee you won't get this wrong again any time soon.

In that past, I had a game where I called a shooting foul followed by a T, and my partner then administered the shots in the wrong order. Last night, I had the same situation (shooting foul followed by a T). Given last night's partner was a rookie, I made sure we met to discuss the T, and I made sure he knew we shot the original three free throws first, followed by the 2 for the T.
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Last edited by Stat-Man; Sat Jan 23, 2016 at 01:53pm.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reffish View Post
Although your moniker says Stubborn Member, you do a fine job of accepting responsibility.
When I first came here it wasn't like that at all. So it's a throw-back nickname. LOL
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
Oh, I get that. When I first look at the rule book, and saw that, I was with you. Part d of that rule makes me wonder. Like devil's advocate, right?
Only one of the criteria has to be met. In this case, "a" is met so it's TC.

The good news is, the right team got the ball.

The bad news is, they had to give up their next AP possession to get it.
The other bad news is they got it under the wrong basket.

Seems like a wash to me.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
Did our mistake cost them the game?
Absolutely not.

Did A make all their freethrows?
Did A makeall their shot attemts?

If not, it's on their shoulders.......

I agree with others that the foul by A2 was a TC foul by rule. As such, the subsequent free throw attempt by B was an unmeritted free throw, which would have been a correctable error. Since he missed the FT attempt, there was no real affect on the game.

The only effective error I see was going to the arrow. As others have pointed out, the lane should have been cleared, A1 allowed to attempt their 2 FT's, then give B the ball at the end line. Team B should have kept the arrow, so if anything your crew's error benefitted team A, not team B.

We've all been there at one time or another, so don't let it eat at you - learn from it and move on.
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Last edited by TimTaylor; Sat Jan 23, 2016 at 04:26pm.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 23, 2016, 02:37pm
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Next Time BryanV21 Is In Connecticut ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
... we get together to make sure we correctly handle things at this point.
This is the most important part of the post. BryanV21 and his partners got together to collectivity try to figure out an odd situation, a situation that few of us see over the course of a season, or even over the course of several seasons. It's also important to note that the error bothered BryanV21, he didn't just shrug it off. I'd work with BryanV21 in any game, at any time.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Jan 23, 2016 at 03:51pm.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 23, 2016, 11:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Wouldn't this be a team control foul?
Greatest post we've seen on the Forum in a long time. I bet magicians hate Adam.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Jan 24, 2016 at 10:18am.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 24, 2016, 06:46am
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1. Officiating mistakes happen to all of us. We hate it. We feel awful, but it is never as bad as we think. We are just harder on ourselves than any non-official can imagine.
2. The foul by A2 is indeed a team control foul. The NFHS has a case book play on this. I'll let you find it.
3. No one else has brought this up yet, but per NFHS interpretation A2 also committed a FT lane violation when he fouled, so that FT is now over and A1 should have only been awarded his second FT attempt wit the lane cleared. Therefore, your crew actually awarded two unmerited FTs in the administration of this.
4. Your attitude has improved a tremendous amount since you first posted on this forum. You are also going to become a much better official because of that. You are now willing to learn from others and your mistakes.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 24, 2016, 08:11am
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Free Throw Violation ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
Just as the free thrower for Team A gets possession of the ball, a teammate of his on the free throw lane pushes a player from Team B that was lined up next to him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
... per NFHS interpretation A2 also committed a FT lane violation when he fouled, so that FT is now over and A1 should have only been awarded his second FT attempt with the lane cleared.
OK. I'll bite. Assuming A2's foot didn't cross any marked lane planes, what's the free throw violation?

Caseplay (below) isn't exactly the same as the original post, but it's the closest that I could find:

9.1.3 SITUATION I: During a free throw by A1, B1 pushes A2, then B2, who is
in a marked lane space, is in the lane too soon: (a) before A1 has started a freethrowing
motion; or (b) after A1 has started a throwing motion. RULING: In (a),
the foul by B1 causes the ball to become dead immediately, therefore the act, by
B2 is not a violation. A1 is permitted the specified number of free throws, after
which the foul is penalized. In (b), the foul does not cause the ball to become dead
immediately, so there are two infractions. Even though the foul occurred first, the
violation is the first to be penalized if A1’s try is unsuccessful. (4-11; 6-7
Exception c; 9-1 Penalty 2)
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Jan 24, 2016 at 08:32am.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 24, 2016, 10:41am
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How about that?

Friday night was perhaps my worst night of officiating, and last night was one of my best.

From what I read in the rule book it was not a violation. 9-1-3 d. says "no player shall enter a marked lane space or leave a marked lane space by contacting the court outside the 36-inch by 36-inch space until the ball is released."

The player that committed the foul did not contact the court outside of his marked lane space.

And part g. of 9-1-3 says "a player occupying a marked lane space may not have either foot beyond the vertical plane of the outside edge of the lane boundary, or beyond the vertical plane of any edge of the space (2 inches by 36 inches) designated by the lane-space marks."

His feet did not leave his marked lane space.

There may be case plays that say otherwise, but looking at these rules I don't see a violation.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 24, 2016, 11:19am
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Almost Always Listen To Nevadaref ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
There may be case plays that say otherwise, but looking at these rules I don't see a violation.
I'm sure that Nevadaref has something up his sleeve. I can't wait for his response. He'll probably pull something out of the 1953-54 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Jan 24, 2016 at 11:24am.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 24, 2016, 01:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
3. No one else has brought this up yet, but per NFHS interpretation A2 also committed a FT lane violation when he fouled, so that FT is now over and A1 should have only been awarded his second FT attempt wit the lane cleared. Therefore, your crew actually awarded two unmerited FTs in the administration of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
From what I read in the rule book it was not a violation. 9-1-3 d. says "no player shall enter a marked lane space or leave a marked lane space by contacting the court outside the 36-inch by 36-inch space until the ball is released."

The player that committed the foul did not contact the court outside of his marked lane space.

And part g. of 9-1-3 says "a player occupying a marked lane space may not have either foot beyond the vertical plane of the outside edge of the lane boundary, or beyond the vertical plane of any edge of the space (2 inches by 36 inches) designated by the lane-space marks."

His feet did not leave his marked lane space.

There may be case plays that say otherwise, but looking at these rules I don't see a violation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I'm sure that Nevadaref has something up his sleeve. I can't wait for his response. He'll probably pull something out of the 1953-54 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations?
I agree. I don't see a violation here. Nothing in the OP indicates that A2 ever left his FT lane spot.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 24, 2016, 02:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ODog View Post
Because it's covered in Part A. The free thrower is holding a live ball. That's the definition of being in control.

For a throw-in, disposal doesn't necessarily mean "holding" the ball. It just means "you have a reasonable opportunity to be holding the ball, but are opting not to." Disposal for a FT means you already have the ball.
As long as you have started the 10 second count, the ball is at the disposal. What if the free throwing team stays in the huddle of a TO? The official will perform a 'resumption of play' procedure and place the ball on the free throw line.
I'm just saying......
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