Incredibly Embarrassing Moment

[Adam]

Wouldn't this be a team control foul?

[ODog]

Originally Posted by Adam

Wouldn't this be a team control foul?

Whoa. I'd say you're right. That's big-time awareness right there!

Clear the lane, shoot the 2 FTs for A, award Team B the ball at the spot nearest the foul?

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Adam

Wouldn't this be a team control foul?

Rule 4-12-2

A team is in control of the ball:
a. when a player of the team is in control
b. while a live ball is being passed among teammates
c. during an interrupted dribble
d. when a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in

Part "d" makes me think that there is no team control when a player of a team has disposal of the ball for a free throw, because if that's the case then why did the NFHS say that in "d" without saying something similar for a free-thrower?

That's my interpretation, and it could very well be wrong.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Rule 4-12-2

A team is in control of the ball:
a. when a player of the team is in control
b. while a live ball is being passed among teammates
c. during an interrupted dribble
d. when a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in

Part "d" makes me think that there is no team control when a player of a team has disposal of the ball for a free throw, because if that's the case then why did the NFHS say that in "d" without saying something similar for a free-thrower?

That's my interpretation, and it could very well be wrong.

Look up player control and see if "A" gets you there. IIRC, it's "Holding a live ball inbounds."

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Adam

Look up player control and see if "A" gets you there. IIRC, it's "Holding a live ball inbounds."

Oh, I get that. When I first look at the rule book, and saw that, I was with you. Part d of that rule makes me wonder. Like devil's advocate, right?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Oh, I get that. When I first look at the rule book, and saw that, I was with you. Part d of that rule makes me wonder. Like devil's advocate, right?

Only one of the criteria has to be met. In this case, "a" is met so it's TC.

The good news is, the right team got the ball.

The bad news is, they had to give up their next AP possession to get it.
The other bad news is they got it under the wrong basket.

Seems like a wash to me.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

A team is in control of the ball:
a. when a player of the team is in control
b. while a live ball is being passed among teammates
c. during an interrupted dribble
d. when a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in

Part "d" makes me think that there is no team control when a player of a team has disposal of the ball for a free throw, because if that's the case then why did the NFHS say that in "d" without saying something similar for a free-thrower?

Because it's covered in Part A. The free thrower is holding a live ball. That's the definition of being in control.

For a throw-in, disposal doesn't necessarily mean "holding" the ball. It just means "you have a reasonable opportunity to be holding the ball, but are opting not to." Disposal for a FT means you already have the ball.

[Zoochy]

Originally Posted by ODog

Because it's covered in Part A. The free thrower is holding a live ball. That's the definition of being in control.

For a throw-in, disposal doesn't necessarily mean "holding" the ball. It just means "you have a reasonable opportunity to be holding the ball, but are opting not to." Disposal for a FT means you already have the ball.

As long as you have started the 10 second count, the ball is at the disposal. What if the free throwing team stays in the huddle of a TO? The official will perform a 'resumption of play' procedure and place the ball on the free throw line.
I'm just saying......

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

As long as you have started the 10 second count, the ball is at the disposal. What if the free throwing team stays in the huddle of a TO? The official will perform a 'resumption of play' procedure and place the ball on the free throw line.
I'm just saying......

And in the context of the OP, there would be no PC or TC in that case.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Adam

And in the context of the OP, there would be no PC or TC in that case.

Interesting (?) that "disposal" creates TC during a throw-in, but not during a FT.

Oversight or intentional?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Interesting (?) that "disposal" creates TC during a throw-in, but not during a FT.

Oversight or intentional?

Possibly because "disposal" on a FT is going to lead to either a timeout or a violation?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

Wouldn't this be a team control foul?

Greatest post we've seen on the Forum in a long time. I bet magicians hate Adam.

[Nevadaref]

1. Officiating mistakes happen to all of us. We hate it. We feel awful, but it is never as bad as we think. We are just harder on ourselves than any non-official can imagine.
2. The foul by A2 is indeed a team control foul. The NFHS has a case book play on this. I'll let you find it.
3. No one else has brought this up yet, but per NFHS interpretation A2 also committed a FT lane violation when he fouled, so that FT is now over and A1 should have only been awarded his second FT attempt wit the lane cleared. Therefore, your crew actually awarded two unmerited FTs in the administration of this.
4. Your attitude has improved a tremendous amount since you first posted on this forum. You are also going to become a much better official because of that. You are now willing to learn from others and your mistakes.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Just as the free thrower for Team A gets possession of the ball, a teammate of his on the free throw lane pushes a player from Team B that was lined up next to him.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

... per NFHS interpretation A2 also committed a FT lane violation when he fouled, so that FT is now over and A1 should have only been awarded his second FT attempt with the lane cleared.

OK. I'll bite. Assuming A2's foot didn't cross any marked lane planes, what's the free throw violation?

Caseplay (below) isn't exactly the same as the original post, but it's the closest that I could find:

9.1.3 SITUATION I: During a free throw by A1, B1 pushes A2, then B2, who is
in a marked lane space, is in the lane too soon: (a) before A1 has started a freethrowing
motion; or (b) after A1 has started a throwing motion. RULING: In (a),
the foul by B1 causes the ball to become dead immediately, therefore the act, by
B2 is not a violation. A1 is permitted the specified number of free throws, after
which the foul is penalized. In (b), the foul does not cause the ball to become dead
immediately, so there are two infractions. Even though the foul occurred first, the
violation is the first to be penalized if A1’s try is unsuccessful. (4-11; 6-7
Exception c; 9-1 Penalty 2)

[BryanV21]

How about that?

Friday night was perhaps my worst night of officiating, and last night was one of my best.

From what I read in the rule book it was not a violation. 9-1-3 d. says "no player shall enter a marked lane space or leave a marked lane space by contacting the court outside the 36-inch by 36-inch space until the ball is released."

The player that committed the foul did not contact the court outside of his marked lane space.

And part g. of 9-1-3 says "a player occupying a marked lane space may not have either foot beyond the vertical plane of the outside edge of the lane boundary, or beyond the vertical plane of any edge of the space (2 inches by 36 inches) designated by the lane-space marks."

His feet did not leave his marked lane space.

There may be case plays that say otherwise, but looking at these rules I don't see a violation.