Act of Shooting...Foul...Horn...Release -- Score It?

[Freddy]

End of Quarter Shot/Foul/Horn/Release Situation



The order of things in this clip seemed to have been this:
Act of Shooting begun...Foul on Shooter...Horn...Ball Released in Flight...Shot Successful.
Do we score that shot?

According to the first part of 5.6.2D ("...A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1 but time expires before the ball is in flight. A1 is awarded two free throws...") it appears that this slight variation of that casebook situation would deem the shot in the video good even though the horn sounded before the ball was in flight.

But from what I'm seeing in 6-7-1 and EXCEPTION: "The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when: c. Article 7 [a foul other than PC or TC] occurs by an opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight." That underlined part prompts me to call it dead on the horn and not count the basket.

Help me here. My sense tells me to count it in the video, and that somewhat similar casebook reference seems to confirm that. However, that 6-7-1 section seems to say the ball is dead since the horn sounded prior to release of the shot.

Can you help me understand this and solve the conundrum I'm in?

[johnny d]

If you believe the foul was before the expiration of time, but the shot was not released until after the horn sounded, you have two possible outcomes.

If you have definitive knowledge of how much time was on the clock when the foul occurred, count the basket, put the exact time back on the clock, and shoot 1 free throw.

If you do not have definitive knowledge of the time, the basket does not count, and shoot two free throws.

[johnny d]

In the video, I do not hear the horn sound. IMO, the foul occurs after zeros on the game clock. Using the available evidence and without hearing the horn, I am waving off the shot and not counting the foul as it occurred when the ball was dead and wasn't intentional or flagrant.

[Freddy]

I now see how 5.6.2D is not in conflict with disregarding the basket and awarding two shots because the period ended before the ball was in flight on the shot.

[BigCat]

In this play the foul may have occurred at the .1 second mark. Defenders hand may have been on offense. Hard to tell. I didn't hear a horn either. (I didn't even hear the official's whistle at time of foul.). There is a case play which says all zeroes on clock does not mean time expired. Horn or light, the "period ending signal," determines it. That play says line the players up and shoot the free throw.

Having said that, I have seen clocks stopped at all zeroes without a horn sounding. We then think it will sound when clock started again. Clock started, no horn then either.

Freddy, if you were there I'm assuming you did hear a horn? If it did go off after the foul and before the ball was released then, as Johhny said originally , basket does not count and shoot 2 FTs with no one on lane. Player is in act of shooting but is not an airborne shooter. Ball is dead when horn sounds and ball is still in his hands.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Freddy

I now see how 5.6.2D is not in conflict with disregarding the basket and awarding two shots because the period ended before the ball was in flight on the shot.

A minor point Freddy, you know this....The "time expired" when the horn sounded. The quarter or period does not end until the FTs are completed. It matters because if someone gets a T after the horn but before the FTS are shot it is penalized in that quarter. Thx

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

There is a case play which says all zeroes on clock does not mean time expired. Horn or light, the "period ending signal," determines it ... I have seen clocks stopped at all zeroes without a horn sounding.

Back in the olden days, mechanical clocks, even if everything was working correctly, could be stopped with 0:00 on the scoreboard with no horn for a split second. In addition, occasionally the timekeeper would accidentally turn off a switch for an automatic horn, and the horn would never sound at the end of the period.

Do these problems still exist with modern digital clocks?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Having said that, I have seen clocks stopped at all zeroes without a horn sounding. We then think it will sound when clock started again. Clock started, no horn then either.

If you get to all zeros with no horn, the first thing to do is to check to see if the "auto horn" is turned on.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Do these problems still exist with modern digital clocks?

If the clock does not show tenths, sure.

If it shows tenths it's possible but unlikely.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by johnny d

In the video, I do not hear the horn sound. IMO, the foul occurs after zeros on the game clock. Using the available evidence and without hearing the horn, I am waving off the shot and not counting the foul as it occurred when the ball was dead and wasn't intentional or flagrant.

Foul happened before there was zero on the clock. Also, zero doesn't even matter.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Freddy

[URL="https://youtu.be/bipWzZeWhpI"]
Can you help me understand this and solve the conundrum I'm in?

Yup. The refresher exam this year had this exact scenario. Two FTs and no shot.

The foul was in the act of shooting so we are shooting FTs no matter what.

However, for the actual shot to count it has to be out of the players' hands before the buzzer.

In this scenario you're shooting the two FTs, but not counting the basket if it goes in.

I was in Denver on business when they had the big IAABO meeting. I went and argued this question and never got a good answer. "Blah blah blah, but you'll never see it in a game."

[JetMetFan]

It sounds as though the video and the audio are out of sync on the clip.

[Raymond]

Since I can't hear the horn I'm going by the clock, and the release and foul occur after clock is at 0:00.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Freddy, if you were there I'm assuming you did hear a horn? If it did go off after the foul and before the ball was released then, as Johhny said originally , basket does not count and shoot 2 FTs with no one on lane. Player is in act of shooting but is not an airborne shooter. Ball is dead when horn sounds and ball is still in his hands.

No, I wasn't there . . . just crunching video for other association members.
I concur with your findings and observations.
The original video has the horn simultaneous with the clock at 0.0.

[SAK]

The release of the ball and the time on the clock has nothing to do with being in the act of shooting. You can be fouled in the act of shooting and release the ball after the horn. In that case you get 2 or 3 shots but because the ball was not released before the horn the basket cannot count if it goes in. Remember to shoot the foul shots prior to ending the period.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Dad

Foul happened before there was zero on the clock. Also, zero doesn't even matter.

Sometimes it does (depending on the level and the replay capabilities)