Act of Shooting...Foul...Horn...Release -- Score It?

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Lah, me. I'll explain it to you.

If the foul happens with 0.7 on the clock and the whistle blows with 0.5, but the official doesn't look until 0.2, then 0.2 is what gets restored by rule. In this case the official is not accurate as he was slow to look either when blowing the whistle or hearing his partner's. However, he does have definite knowledge.

This isn't zero accuracy. You knew some time was left on the clock. I was just curious how far Camron would take definite knowledge.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AremRed

What kind of atomic basketball clock is this??

Last week, I had a scoreboard that had a spot for hundredths of a second. That spot always showed a zero, but it caught my attention..

[Freddy]

Oddity three years ago . . . according to my rusty memory:
Scoreboard minutes and seconds worked great but the tenths of seconds, we were told by the AD prior to the game, didn't work. Wouldn't you know it. Whistle near end of a period stopped the clock at 0:0 but the horn didn't go off. Home coach, desiring to set up a play during a timeout, asked if we could go to the scoreboard operator's console at the table to identify if there was .3 seconds or fewer left on the clock. (At least he knew the rule!) As I recall the console display showed .2, so we knew the next play had to be a tip.
Looked it up later where 5-2-5 says "...three-tenths (.3) of a second or less remains on the clock...". Doesn't say which display, so as long as both coaches and all the officials knew the situation, we justified our actions in that case.
One in a million circumstance, I guess.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Freddy

... stopped the clock at 0:0 but the horn didn't go off ... the console display showed .2, so we knew the next play had to be a tip ... 5-2-5 says "...three-tenths (.3) of a second or less remains on the clock...". Doesn't say which display ... One in a million circumstance ...

Maybe more likely than one in a million. This scenario had been discussed on the Forum two, or three, times over the past several years.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Maybe more likely than one in a million. This scenario had been discussed on the Forum two, or three, times over the past several years.

I keep forgetting: Has we ever reached out to an interpreter - or Peter Webb - to get an answer as to whether the 0:00.3 or less has to be on a clock everyone can see, as opposed to just the official timer?

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Please note that both of these case plays predate the current NFHS rules which have eliminated lag time for the timer. We have to interpret them in the context of the current rules, not under those during which they were authored.

You have my attention. Request you go into more detail about the old rule language, what has changed, and what the applicable rule-article-section is.

I'm dubious because:

A) language about definite knowledge has always been in place (at least as long as I can remember).

B) the case plays are still in the book, and with the NFHS's propensity to quietly remove old case plays, one has to wonder why they haven't removed or edited these two.

C) it's not like we have precision timing packs and monitors in HS, so why would the NFHS deliberately remove timer lag time allowance when the definite knowledge clause has always been a backstop for officials?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Oddity three years ago . . . according to my rusty memory:
Scoreboard minutes and seconds worked great but the tenths of seconds, we were told by the AD prior to the game, didn't work. Wouldn't you know it. Whistle near end of a period stopped the clock at 0:0 but the horn didn't go off. Home coach, desiring to set up a play during a timeout, asked if we could go to the scoreboard operator's console at the table to identify if there was .3 seconds or fewer left on the clock. (At least he knew the rule!) As I recall the console display showed .2, so we knew the next play had to be a tip.
Looked it up later where 5-2-5 says "...three-tenths (.3) of a second or less remains on the clock...". Doesn't say which display, so as long as both coaches and all the officials knew the situation, we justified our actions in that case.
One in a million circumstance, I guess.

I don't agree. The operating console is not the game clock. The visible one required by Rule 1 is what you need.

Additionally, don't ignore the note after 5-2-5.

When play is resumed with a throw-in or free throw and three-tenths (.3) of a second or less remains on the clock, a player may not gain control of the ball and try for a field goal. In this situation only a tap could score.

NOTE: This rule does not apply if the clock does not display tenths of a second.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by AremRed

What kind of atomic basketball clock is this??

I've seen it more than once on the console itself (never the board, though). Not often, but it seems there are one or two scoreboard companies who have this console feature. Just worth being aware of if you ever experience 0.0 with no horn.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[frezer11]

I think this scenario would be a great time to NOT have that patient whistle we all strive for. That said, say an official for whatever reason is less aware of the clock than usual, and sees contact (let's say with 0.5 on the clock), is patient to try to determine the effect of that contact, and the horn goes off. The contact clearly affects the shot attempt, and needs to be called. In this situation I don't believe it would be possible to put time back on the clock, nor could you count the bucket if release was after the buzzer.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by frezer11

I think this scenario would be a great time to NOT have that patient whistle we all strive for. That said, say an official for whatever reason is less aware of the clock than usual, and sees contact (let's say with 0.5 on the clock), is patient to try to determine the effect of that contact, and the horn goes off. The contact clearly affects the shot attempt, and needs to be called. In this situation I don't believe it would be possible to put time back on the clock, nor could you count the bucket if release was after the buzzer.

Not according to the NFHS rules as written, but there are going to be several posters on here who would restore time and count the goal.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

You have my attention. Request you go into more detail about the old rule language, what has changed, and what the applicable rule-article-section is.

The rule said something to the effect that "if the timer stops the clock within 1 second of the whistle, that's good enough."

So, if you blew the whistle at 0:05.0 (and were looking at the clock at the time), and the timer stopped the clock at 0:04.0, you'd leave that on the clock.

And, to someone else's question about hundredths of seconds, there's a school here where the clocks above the backboards show tenths when the clock is running (under a minute), but hundredths when the clock is stopped (also under a minute).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Dad

Lost me here, example? Seems with zero accuracy there's no definite knowledge.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Lah, me. I'll explain it to you.

If the foul happens with 0.7 on the clock and the whistle blows with 0.5, but the official doesn't look until 0.2, then 0.2 is what gets restored by rule. In this case the official is not accurate as he was slow to look either when blowing the whistle or hearing his partner's. However, he does have definite knowledge.

Another example....the clock is at 7.5 at the time of a throwin that is immediately caught inbounds while closely guarded. The clock doesn't start. The official's 5-count is in progress and gets to 5 without the clock starting. Like many official's counts, the count is slow and it was really 8 seconds. You still take 5 off the clock regardless of how accurate the official's count is.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Dad

This isn't zero accuracy. You knew some time was left on the clock. I was just curious how far Camron would take definite knowledge.

I have a mental count at any time when the situation matters. I look at the clock on any whistle when the situation matters (and the play allows). Between the two, I'm going to definitely have knowledge of how much time was left, even in fractions of a second, if the horn sounds after my whistle.

In my count, I might be off a couple of tenths at most but that is allowed by rule.

I KNOW that the clock ran after the whistle, I KNOW I had a count in my head. I can, by rule, use that count to restore time regardless of how accurate it is.

Anyone that has ever had much musical training (and I have) is going to have a good sense of time and reasonably accurate timing, even to subparts of a second. No reason not to use all the skills and training one has in order to do a better job.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I have a mental count at any time when the situation matters. I look at the clock on any whistle when the situation matters (and the play allows). Between the two, I'm going to definitely have knowledge of how much time was left, even in fractions of a second, if the horn sounds after my whistle.

In my count, I might be off a couple of tenths at most but that is allowed by rule.

I KNOW that the clock ran after the whistle, I KNOW I had a count in my head. I can, by rule, use that count to restore time regardless of how accurate it is.

Anyone that has ever had much musical training (and I have) is going to have a good sense of time and reasonably accurate timing, even to subparts of a second. No reason not to use all the skills and training one has in order to do a better job.

Thank you for the response!

I agree, musical training helps a lot with having a feel for timing.