HS Intentional/Flagrant VIDEO

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

MTD,
Care to read the situation posted by Adam again?
His first foul was not for taunting.

I was not commenting about what Adam said. I was agreeing with Jeff that a StateHSAA can impose more stringent rules regarding taunting and gave a real life example, i.e., the MichiganHSAA.

MTD, Sr.

[APG]

Flagrant foul/FF2 on the first play

Flagrant T/F2 T for the kick.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by APG

Flagrant foul/FF2 on the first play

Flagrant T/F2 T for the kick.

I feel the same way. I had to slow the play down to draw that conclusion as it is hard to see the how bad the play is from the angle and quickness of the defender coming into play.

Peace

[APG]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I feel the same way. I had to slow the play down to draw that conclusion as it is hard to see the how bad the play is from the angle and quickness of the defender coming into play.

Peace

My thinking on the play:

Windup: while the defender didn't wind up, the defender did size up the opponent. To me, it's apparent the was gonna make sure that the offensive player was not going to score if he had anything to do with it. This is enough for me to say there was a wind up.

Impact: While the actual impact wasn't great, the contact was above the shoulder.

Follow through: this is the big one for me. The defender has the offensive player around the shoulders and pulls the defender to the floor.

Other factors: Defender is not making a legitimate play on the ball IMO. The offensive player is airborne and has no opportunity to defend himself. There's also a high likelihood for injury on this type of play....wall near to the court or not.

One last thing....and maybe it's nitpicking...but I wish the calling official...after seeing the two bodies go to the floor...went to the players...and specifically to offensive player. A play like this, the offended person is likely to retaliate. If the calling official gets to the players, perhaps he's able to stop the offensive player from kicking the defender.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by APG

My thinking on the play:

Windup: while the defender didn't wind up, the defender did size up the opponent. To me, it's apparent the was gonna make sure that the offensive player was not going to score if he had anything to do with it. This is enough for me to say there was a wind up.

Impact: While the actual impact wasn't great, the contact was above the shoulder.

Follow through: this is the big one for me. The defender has the offensive player around the shoulders and pulls the defender to the floor.

Other factors: Defender is not making a legitimate play on the ball IMO. The offensive player is airborne and has no opportunity to defend himself. There's also a high likelihood for injury on this type of play....wall near to the court or not.

One last thing....and maybe it's nitpicking...but I wish the calling official...after seeing the two bodies go to the floor...went to the players...and specifically to offensive player. A play like this, the offended person is likely to retaliate. If the calling official gets to the players, perhaps he's able to stop the offensive player from kicking the defender.

I wouldn't be upset with tossing both of them, either. I can see what APG is saying about windup. I looks like the defender wasn't just making sure the BH/D wouldn't score, he was making sure the BH/D wouldn't dunk.

I also agree with APG's assessment of the L's actions immediately after the initial foul. Making the IF signal is all well and good but you just had one player knock another player into a (thankfully padded) wall. As I've been told by one of my supervisors, go to the victim. It might prevent the retaliation or even further action by the perpetrator. You can always make the signal once the players separate.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I wouldn't be upset with tossing both of them, either. I can see what APG is saying about windup. I looks like the defender wasn't just making sure the BH/D wouldn't' score, he was making sure the BH/D wouldn't dunk.

I also agree with APG's assessment of the L's actions immediately after the initial foul. Making the IF signal is all well and good but you just had one player knock another player into a (thankfully padded) wall. As I've been told by one of my supervisors, go to the victim. It might prevent the retaliation or even further action by the perpetrator. You can always make the signal once the players separate.

Do I understand correctly, that NCAA guidelines mention a "wind-up" as a factor to be considered, in judging the severity and consequent penalties, in such cases? I'm unaware of such statement in NFHS guidelines.
I've been taught, and follow the principle, when severe contact occurs, especially with the players going to the floor, first, to close in, and take care of the players, and any others who may join the scene. Then, on-site signals can be given. I also use my voice, and sometimes emphatically, to let them know that I'm there, close, and they need not retaliate.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

Do I understand correctly, that NCAA guidelines mention a "wind-up" as a factor to be considered, in judging the severity and consequent penalties, in such cases? I'm unaware of such statement in NFHS guidelines.
I've been taught, and follow the principle, when severe contact occurs, especially with the players going to the floor, first, to close in, and take care of the players, and any others who may join the scene. Then, on-site signals can be given. I also use my voice, and sometimes emphatically, to let them know that I'm there, close, and they need not retaliate.

From the NCAA-M Rule book:

d. Flagrant 2 personal foul. A flagrant 2 personal foul is a personal foul that involves contact with an opponent that is not only excessive, but also severe or extreme while the ball is live. In determining whether a foul has risen to the level of a flagrant 2, officials should consider the following:

1. The severity of the contact;

2. Whether a player is making a legitimate effort to block a shot. Note that a player may still be assessed a flagrant 2 foul on an attempted blocked shot when there are other factors such as hard contact to the head or the defender winding up or emphatically following through with the contact);

3. The potential for injury resulting from the contact (e.g., a blow to the head or a foul committed while the player was in a vulnerable position).

4. Any contact by the offending player to the groin area of an opponent which is not clearly accidental. Note: The above acts represent examples of potential flagrant 2 fouls. Other acts may also qualify, if they meet the criteria of being not only excessive but also severe or extreme.

It should also be noted that the WIF guideline is from the NBA. In fact a lot of the criteria I used earlier is from NBA guidelines on what they consider a FF1/FF2. Now someone people may not agree, but I think it's a good baseline as to what to consider intentional/flagrant in games where NFHS has not done a good job except as to give vague, general statements...especially in regard to flagrant fouls.

[MechanicGuy]

Someone needs to build a new gym for that school. Absurdly dangerous.