HS Intentional/Flagrant VIDEO

[j51969]

Originally Posted by deecee

I do wish the calling official closed in on the initial contact.

Great point,

Certainly doesn't explain fouled player actions in any way. But if he gets in there quicker maybe kick never happens.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

Do I understand correctly, that NCAA guidelines mention a "wind-up" as a factor to be considered, in judging the severity and consequent penalties, in such cases? I'm unaware of such statement in NFHS guidelines.
I've been taught, and follow the principle, when severe contact occurs, especially with the players going to the floor, first, to close in, and take care of the players, and any others who may join the scene. Then, on-site signals can be given. I also use my voice, and sometimes emphatically, to let them know that I'm there, close, and they need not retaliate.

From the NCAA-M Rule book:

d. Flagrant 2 personal foul. A flagrant 2 personal foul is a personal foul that involves contact with an opponent that is not only excessive, but also severe or extreme while the ball is live. In determining whether a foul has risen to the level of a flagrant 2, officials should consider the following:

1. The severity of the contact;

2. Whether a player is making a legitimate effort to block a shot. Note that a player may still be assessed a flagrant 2 foul on an attempted blocked shot when there are other factors such as hard contact to the head or the defender winding up or emphatically following through with the contact);

3. The potential for injury resulting from the contact (e.g., a blow to the head or a foul committed while the player was in a vulnerable position).

4. Any contact by the offending player to the groin area of an opponent which is not clearly accidental. Note: The above acts represent examples of potential flagrant 2 fouls. Other acts may also qualify, if they meet the criteria of being not only excessive but also severe or extreme.

It should also be noted that the WIF guideline is from the NBA. In fact a lot of the criteria I used earlier is from NBA guidelines on what they consider a FF1/FF2. Now someone people may not agree, but I think it's a good baseline as to what to consider intentional/flagrant in games where NFHS has not done a good job except as to give vague, general statements...especially in regard to flagrant fouls.

[MechanicGuy]

Someone needs to build a new gym for that school. Absurdly dangerous.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

As the first person in this thread to have mentioned the "upgrade based on reaction" to the first foul, I would like to rescind that statement. In reading the discussion here, I have been educated, and I realize that there is no justification in the book for said upgrade as the original foul, in my opinion, was not an unsporting act.

Thank you all for your comments and incites.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

As the first person in this thread to have mentioned the "upgrade based on reaction" to the first foul, I would like to rescind that statement. In reading the discussion here, I have been educated, and I realize that there is no justification in the book for said upgrade as the original foul, in my opinion, was not an unsporting act.

Thank you all for your comments and incites.

That would lead to an upgrade, however, if someone reacts to it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

As the first person in this thread to have mentioned the "upgrade based on reaction" to the first foul, I would like to rescind that statement. In reading the discussion here, I have been educated, and I realize that there is no justification in the book for said upgrade as the original foul, in my opinion, was not an unsporting act.

Thank you all for your comments and incites.

This is the type of response which makes it worth it for me to spend my time on this forum. Learning that a fellow official gained a better understanding of a rule and its proper application because of our discussion verifies the value and purpose of this.
*Now we will add a quick lesson on homonyms because of Camron's humorous comment.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That would lead to an upgrade, however, if someone reacts to it.

*homonym: a word pronounced the same as another but differing in meaning, whether spelled the same way or not

incite: to cause (someone) to act in an angry, harmful, or violent way
insight: an understanding of the true nature of something

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by APG

From the NCAA-M Rule book:

d. Flagrant 2 personal foul. A flagrant 2 personal foul is a personal foul that involves contact with an opponent that is not only excessive, but also severe or extreme while the ball is live. In determining whether a foul has risen to the level of a flagrant 2, officials should consider the following:

1. The severity of the contact;

2. Whether a player is making a legitimate effort to block a shot. Note that a player may still be assessed a flagrant 2 foul on an attempted blocked shot when there are other factors such as hard contact to the head or the defender winding up or emphatically following through with the contact);

3. The potential for injury resulting from the contact (e.g., a blow to the head or a foul committed while the player was in a vulnerable position).

4. Any contact by the offending player to the groin area of an opponent which is not clearly accidental. Note: The above acts represent examples of potential flagrant 2 fouls. Other acts may also qualify, if they meet the criteria of being not only excessive but also severe or extreme.

It should also be noted that the WIF guideline is from the NBA. In fact a lot of the criteria I used earlier is from NBA guidelines on what they consider a FF1/FF2. Now someone people may not agree, but I think it's a good baseline as to what to consider intentional/flagrant in games where NFHS has not done a good job except as to give vague, general statements...especially in regard to flagrant fouls.

Thanks for posting this. I agree that the NCAA has done a much better job of defining a disqualifying foul (FF2) than the NFHS. The NFHS wording seems antiquated to me and fails to give officials the necessary rules support to protect the safety of the players, in my opinion.

As I mentioned in a previous post the mentality of those who have been instructed at the college level in the past few years is quite different from the NFHS-only official or the college ref from years ago towards these hard fouls against airborne players. I'm glad to see that the NCAA has codified the instruction language from a few years ago into its rulesbook. Not having such in the NFHS book leaves officials to deal with the terms excessive, violent, and savage. As demonstrated here, parsing those leads to unclear outcomes.

I note the decision of some in this discussion who are going with an IPF and not a FPF under NFHS rules and think that it has a tremendous amount to do with seeing this play as excessive contact, but not believing it to be violent or savage due to the common definition of those words. I wonder if someone such as MTD would have a different decision if he ruled on this play for an NCAAM's contest using the rules which you have just posted. He is a great example for the category that I mentioned before of someone who is a longtime NFHS official and/or a college official from previous years. I greatly respect his opinions and know that he cares about doing quality and proper officiating, so it is worthwhile to contrast his thoughts with those of johnnyd and APG, who are in the new/current college official crowd and getting the latest instruction on how the NCAA wants this aspect of the game called.

I truly believe that the difference in the rulesbook language and the training from one level to the other, as well as from one time period to the next, causes these differing decisions from quality officials who view the same play. That shouldn't be the case and in this instance it is something which I think can be fixed by updating the NFHS book.

For player safety the action shown in the video needs to be a disqualifying foul (flagrant) in the high school game.