Assistant chirping from stands

[UNIgiantslayers]

Thanks for all the input.

I agree with you guys that I probably should have given him a warning about the AC, so that part was totally my fault. Yes, this probably would have resolved both T's. I also agree that I probably shouldn't have told him to keep his mouth shut. Sometimes I forget that they all aren't big boys and I need to keep the kid gloves on somewhat. I could have phrased that better with the same message, and I realize that. I have been working on communicating better with coaches, and I think this will be something that I'll focus on for the 2nd half of this season.

As far as the convo with the HC (JV), I didn't feel too badly about that because of the way he was approaching me. I probably wasn't as clear as I should have been but he was clearly trying to intimidate/bully me, so I wanted to shut that down immediately. I felt his actions were not deserving of a nice/respectful response like "Okay coach, I'll come to you if you just head back that way." That's why I'm here though, I want to learn from what you guys would do so that I can continue to improve and fill out a full slate of V games each year instead of sprinkling in the JV/JH games to fill out the schedule.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Ignore his evaluation.

You handled this just fine. The whole notion that you have to give a warning to the HC to control his bench before calling a T on that bench is ridiculous. Every coach knows the role of the Assistants. If they want to step out of that role, they get what they earn.

You absolutely can. But this is what has been instructed to me from HS to college by officials that do D1 to state finals, to assignors and evaluators.There is a shift from a dogmatic, holier than thou, officiating mindset to a more communicative one. My college assignor told me flat out he does not want officials that cannot communicate with players and coaches.

This year being my first doing ncaam I have had 3 games so far and 2 T's, both on players. In HS I have done about 15 BV games so far and had 6 T's I believe. 1 on a coach, and 2 that I should have called and had a lapse in testicular fortitude.

Rocky is right, you don't HAVE to warn, and there are instances where there is no warning. But from what you described I personally don't see that as an auto T versus an opportunity to work with the coach.

[UNIgiantslayers]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm not sticking around for conversations. They go just like UNI described: "first apologizes then he starts questioning the T".

I was serious about my sports bar remark. If he wants to talk, then do it away from the venue as 2 individuals having a casual conversation. Funny thing is, I've bumped into plenty of coaches out and about and never once has any of them discussed anything related to games I've worked or anything about officiating in their games. I've even bumped into a coach whom I had T'd up and he didn't even recognize me. Coaches know full well why they get T's. We don't need to stick around to explain to them why.

I ran into a coach at a gas station the next morning after I T'ed him up. I was pumped to see him.

[UNIgiantslayers]

Originally Posted by Adam

Why was the AC sitting behind the bench?

I have no idea. He's the V head coach, so maybe he was just watching. But my thought is that if he went into the locker room with the team, he is a member of that team's coaching staff.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

Thanks for all the input.

I agree with you guys that I probably should have given him a warning about the AC, so that part was totally my fault. Yes, this probably would have resolved both T's. I also agree that I probably shouldn't have told him to keep his mouth shut. Sometimes I forget that they all aren't big boys and I need to keep the kid gloves on somewhat. I could have phrased that better with the same message, and I realize that. I have been working on communicating better with coaches, and I think this will be something that I'll focus on for the 2nd half of this season.

As far as the convo with the HC (JV), I didn't feel too badly about that because of the way he was approaching me. I probably wasn't as clear as I should have been but he was clearly trying to intimidate/bully me, so I wanted to shut that down immediately. I felt his actions were not deserving of a nice/respectful response like "Okay coach, I'll come to you if you just head back that way." That's why I'm here though, I want to learn from what you guys would do so that I can continue to improve and fill out a full slate of V games each year instead of sprinkling in the JV/JH games to fill out the schedule.

I have no problem with the way you handled it. Could a warning earlier have prevented it? Maybe, but judging by the coach's response to the T, I doubt it. Once you determined the comments were coming from the AC, you could have reminded the coach that his AC was on the verge of costing his team a technical foul. Note, you could have, but it's by no means required and it's not something the coach is owed or deserves. As rockyroad noted, the coach knows the role of an AC and allowing the AC to step outside that role is on him.

As for the way you dealt with the HC, not only would I call the T just as you did but I would also make sure you submit a report to your assigner and maybe the state. A technical foul is one thing, coaches get stupid from time to time, but an attempt to physically intimidate an official is above and beyond the normal stupid line.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

I have no idea. He's the V head coach, so maybe he was just watching. But my thought is that if he went into the locker room with the team, he is a member of that team's coaching staff.

In that case, he's likely just a spectator. As a coach, he is required to be on the bench. As a fan he gets a little leeway. As a coach in the stands, he can still be held to a higher standard and simply removed from the gym.

One possible way to address it is to ask the JV HC if the guy behind the bench is an AC for this game. If he answers in the affirmative, remind him he needs to be on the bench and warn him that the comments need to cease. If he says no, feel free to go to game management and have the loudmouthed fan removed.

Again, I have no problem with how you handled it; these are just possible alternatives.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

As far as the convo with the HC (JV), I didn't feel too badly about that because of the way he was approaching me. I probably wasn't as clear as I should have been but he was clearly trying to intimidate/bully me, so I wanted to shut that down immediately. I felt his actions were not deserving of a nice/respectful response like "Okay coach, I'll come to you if you just head back that way." That's why I'm here though, I want to learn from what you guys would do so that I can continue to improve and fill out a full slate of V games each year instead of sprinkling in the JV/JH games to fill out the schedule.

If that's the case T him 100% of the time. I have handed out T's to coaches for staring me down. The first time I looked at the coach, noticed he was just trying to stare me down and I said "I'm not going to play that game." I turned away to move to my spot looked back he was still staring so I T'd him up.

When I first started officiating I was very quick with the T's, and I think when you are less experienced it's better to be quick with T's than not give out enough.

The point is, more often than not, at the lower levels the T's are much easier to call.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

Here are my questions:
1. Were both T's justified?
2. What could/should I have done differently to prevent the 2nd T?
3. Should I have mentioned my issue to the other official after the game? I'll probably never work with him again so I didn't say anything.
4. I was a bit annoyed that my partner stood there with him because it sort of made me look like a jerk. I didn't feel like I needed to justify it to him and if he couldn't figure it out from what I said, he's an idiot. I found out later he's the Varsity HC. Should I have stayed and given him a better explanation?

1. Ts are for unsporting behavior, if you feel the actions were unsporting, then yes they were justified. What we think ultimately does not matter when you were there.

2. Sounds like you tried to do enough and it did not work.

3. No, never. Let that go.

4. Probably inexperience, chalk it up as a learning experience. Sometimes you cannot rely on your partner to save you from a coach. Take care of business.

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

I feel like I catch more crap from coaches because I look young (I'm 31 but look like I'm maybe 22) and it wears me out. Maybe it's in my head, but I don't see the older guys on my crew have coaches push them as much it seems like they try to get away with with me.

I used to say that the more grey hair you have, the more they leave you alone. That was true for me and many others when we started in our early 20s. Just know when someone sees you more that usually goes away when they have confidence in your ability, but it takes time sometimes.

Peace

[deecee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I used to say that the more grey hair you have, the more they leave you alone. That was true for me and many others when we started in our early 20s. Just know when someone sees you more that usually goes away when they have confidence in your ability, but it takes time sometimes.

Peace

Great point. Coaches, and people in general, would rather work with someone they feel comfortable with even if that person is not as qualified than a rookie. The old saying along the lines of "the devil that you know..."

[UNIgiantslayers]

Originally Posted by deecee

Great point. Coaches, and people in general, would rather work with someone they feel comfortable with even if that person is not as qualified than a rookie. The old saying along the lines of "the devil that you know..."

So start smoking, quit using sunscreen, and be patient. Got it!

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Ignore his evaluation.

You handled this just fine. The whole notion that you have to give a warning to the HC to control his bench before calling a T on that bench is ridiculous. Every coach knows the role of the Assistants. If they want to step out of that role, they get what they earn.

To each his own, but I'm not sure I'd call this "Ridiculous." If I can prevent a problem by showing the HC enough respect to give him a chance to rectify the scenario, then I think that's good game management. Again, as others have said, there are some things that an AC can say that is automatic, no need to warn a coach, but from the description in the OP, this certainly doesn't seem like the case to me.

"You HAVE to give a warning to the HC" is ridiculous, but if you're able to, why not?

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

I ran into a coach at a gas station the next morning after I T'ed him up. I was pumped to see him.

I see what you did there...

[deecee]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

I have no idea. He's the V head coach, so maybe he was just watching. But my thought is that if he went into the locker room with the team, he is a member of that team's coaching staff.

That's not correct.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tnolan

UNI,
Work on your pre-game conference and impress coaches with a thorough speech.

Huh?

The longer a speech, the less competent I assume an official is. I would assume any coach with half a brain would think exactly the same.

My pregame with captains is 11 seconds. My greeting to the head coach is a "walk-by." They know why I'm there and by the time they get that position they don't need a speech from an official.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by frezer11

To each his own, but I'm not sure I'd call this "Ridiculous." If I can prevent a problem by showing the HC enough respect to give him a chance to rectify the scenario, then I think that's good game management. Again, as others have said, there are some things that an AC can say that is automatic, no need to warn a coach, but from the description in the OP, this certainly doesn't seem like the case to me.

"You HAVE to give a warning to the HC" is ridiculous, but if you're able to, why not?

But we still have rules and those rules are actually rather clear. We give warnings to be courteous and mostly so we do not look like a bad guy, but there is nothing that requires us to do that in any way.

Peace