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Old Fri Jan 08, 2016, 09:37am
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Assistant chirping from stands

I've been turning this one over in my mind since last night, so I thought I'd post it here and see what you guys think.

I had an open night last night because I ran a marathon a week ago so I didn't schedule anything for this week. I was feeling recovered for the most part so I took a JV double header that a school close by needed someone for. JV girls games are just brutal.

In the boys game, a guy keeps chirping about calls from behind the bench. No big deal, I figured it was a fan so whatever. At halftime I notice him coming out of the locker room with the team. I meant to tell the HC to keep him under control since he's a coach but it slipped my mind. 4th quarter, about 6 min left in the game. He says "Oh you guys are just missing all kinds of stuff, sir." So I put air in the whistle and whack him. As I'm reporting the foul, the HC wants to know what the deal is. I said "Coach, I'm not going to have your assistant chirping at us anymore." He starts out onto the court saying "Wait a minute, you need to pay attention to the game and ignore what's going on over here." He's a pretty big guy (probably 6'3" or so and 275) and I'm not (5'9" 150), and he is right in my face on the court. I tell him "Coach, you're going to want to go back to the bench," and he walks (EDITED TO ADD: walks even closer to me) so that we are maybe 5" apart. I whack him and walk away.

I was working with a partner who I'd never worked with before and who told me before the game this was his first year back since the 90s (he quit when his kids started playing). If I were him, I would have come over and offered support/try to take over to get the calling official out of the situation, but he just stood at the baseline ready to administer the FT.

After the game right after we observe the handshakes, the assistant who got the first T walks up and says "Can I ask you guys a question?" and I didn't really want to, but my partner said yeah. So I stand there for a second and he first apologizes then he starts questioning the T. I just said "I'm not going to discuss that with you. If you're not the head coach, keep your mouth shut on the bench," and I walked away. My partner stood there and talked to him for a few minutes. He said the guy thought he was okay to say what he wanted because he ended with "sir."

Here are my questions:
1. Were both T's justified?
2. What could/should I have done differently to prevent the 2nd T?
3. Should I have mentioned my issue to the other official after the game? I'll probably never work with him again so I didn't say anything.
4. I was a bit annoyed that my partner stood there with him because it sort of made me look like a jerk. I didn't feel like I needed to justify it to him and if he couldn't figure it out from what I said, he's an idiot. I found out later he's the Varsity HC. Should I have stayed and given him a better explanation?

I feel like I catch more crap from coaches because I look young (I'm 31 but look like I'm maybe 22) and it wears me out. Maybe it's in my head, but I don't see the older guys on my crew have coaches push them as much it seems like they try to get away with with me.

Last edited by UNIgiantslayers; Fri Jan 08, 2016 at 10:05am.
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Old Fri Jan 08, 2016, 09:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
...I ran a marathon a week ago...
Quit bragging.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
...
Here are my questions:
1. Were both T's justified?
2. What could/should I have done differently to prevent the 2nd T?
3. Should I have mentioned my issue to the other official after the game? I'll probably never work with him again so I didn't say anything.
4. I was a bit annoyed that my partner stood there with him because it sort of made me look like a jerk. I didn't feel like I needed to justify it to him and if he couldn't figure it out from what I said, he's an idiot. I found out later he's the Varsity HC. Should I have stayed and given him a better explanation?
1) Yes
2) Nothing
3) If you work with him again, bring it up
4) You're not the one who looks like a jerk. Never stick around to explain things to a coach. If he wants a conversation, tell him which sports bar you frequent and he can buy you a beer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
... I look young (I'm 31 but look like I'm maybe 22) and it wears me out. ...
Quit bragging.

Quote:
"Wait a minute, you need to pay attention to the game and ignore what's going on over here."
I abso-f**king-lutely hate this line from coaches. Tempted to tell them to pay attention to coaching and quit trying to officiate. That line from a coach ends any further question-answering from me for the rest of the game.
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Last edited by Raymond; Fri Jan 08, 2016 at 10:00am.
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Old Fri Jan 08, 2016, 09:58am
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1. Usually before I T up an assistant I do warn the HC (unless the AC is so out of line).
2. You ask the coach to go back to his bench, he then complies, and you then T him up. Not good. Either T him up or walk him back. Usually if a coach has been well behaved and his advance on the court isn't egregious and rude I walk him/her back the first time and make it clear next time it wont be tolerated.
3. After a game if a coach is reasonable and has a question (heck even during the game) I will chat with them. Once it turns to them talking at me I just walk away.
4. If you want to move up you have to be able to communicate. Not saying you don't have to issue T's but you need to be able to communicate with coaches and players. It's not a necessity per se, but it's pretty much expected so to speak.

I personally think the "knight in shining armor" is a stupid approach. We are adults and we can deal with our issues. You called a T, report it, go opposite table. I think it looks worse when my partner is dealing with a coach face to face and then I come in and tell my partner that I will take it from here. It's one thing if you report and move yourself to a different location and then the coach continues and your partner is in a position to address the coach but doesn't.

I also personally would rip into a partner, but then again we pregame this, that if I am dealing with a coach, I do not need "rescuing".

Overall from how you described things I would rate how you handled things a C, especially considering this is a JV game. In a varsity game this would be a D/F.
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Old Fri Jan 08, 2016, 10:03am
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Originally Posted by deecee View Post
2. You ask the coach to go back to his bench, he then complies, and you then T him up. Not good. Either T him up or walk him back. Usually if a coach has been well behaved and his advance on the court isn't egregious and rude I walk him/her back the first time and make it clear next time it wont be tolerated.
No, he got closer to me. If I wouldn't have backed up, we would have been chest to large belly. Sorry I wasn't clear on that, I fixed it in the OP.
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Old Fri Jan 08, 2016, 10:07am
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Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
No, he got closer to me. If I wouldn't have backed up, we would have been chest to large belly. Sorry I wasn't clear on that, I fixed it in the OP.
In that case, perfectly justified.
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Old Fri Jan 08, 2016, 10:12am
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So no warning to the HC to keep his bench under control? Obviously if the assistant is really out of line that isn't necessary, but just from my reading of your post it sounds like the bench T may have been a bit quick. Hard to tell context without being there. And the T on the HC is hard to tell just from your description. If you felt like he was physically intimidating you and being aggressive toward you, the T sounds like it would have been warranted when he is in your face. Edit: I read the 5" as 5'. Yeah if he is in your face like that you have no choice. Although like deecee said, you could have moved away from that bench after the first T, but sometimes that just isn't possible.

And as long as the guy was apologizing and not being confrontational after the game, I feel like it would be good form to talk to the guy through your thinking. Although where I'm from we don't stick around to watch handshakes and have too many postgame discussions with coaches.

Last edited by ballgame99; Fri Jan 08, 2016 at 10:17am.
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Old Fri Jan 08, 2016, 10:30am
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Originally Posted by deecee View Post
Overall from how you described things I would rate how you handled things a C, especially considering this is a JV game. In a varsity game this would be a D/F.
Wow. This is a bit harsh. I don't see evidence of any major communication mistakes...
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Old Fri Jan 08, 2016, 10:39am
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Originally Posted by jpgc99 View Post
Wow. This is a bit harsh. I don't see evidence of any major communication mistakes...
That would change a bit considering the new information to B- for JV and C- for V.

But it's really only on this small incident. The rest of the game could have been great and the overall score could well be B+/A-.
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Old Fri Jan 08, 2016, 10:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
I've been turning this one over in my mind since last night, so I thought I'd post it here and see what you guys think.

I had an open night last night because I ran a marathon a week ago so I didn't schedule anything for this week. I was feeling recovered for the most part so I took a JV double header that a school close by needed someone for. JV girls games are just brutal.

In the boys game, a guy keeps chirping about calls from behind the bench. No big deal, I figured it was a fan so whatever. At halftime I notice him coming out of the locker room with the team. I meant to tell the HC to keep him under control since he's a coach but it slipped my mind. 4th quarter, about 6 min left in the game. He says "Oh you guys are just missing all kinds of stuff, sir." So I put air in the whistle and whack him. As I'm reporting the foul, the HC wants to know what the deal is. I said "Coach, I'm not going to have your assistant chirping at us anymore." He starts out onto the court saying "Wait a minute, you need to pay attention to the game and ignore what's going on over here." He's a pretty big guy (probably 6'3" or so and 275) and I'm not (5'9" 150), and he is right in my face on the court. I tell him "Coach, you're going to want to go back to the bench," and he walks (EDITED TO ADD: walks even closer to me) so that we are maybe 5" apart. I whack him and walk away.

I was working with a partner who I'd never worked with before and who told me before the game this was his first year back since the 90s (he quit when his kids started playing). If I were him, I would have come over and offered support/try to take over to get the calling official out of the situation, but he just stood at the baseline ready to administer the FT.

After the game right after we observe the handshakes, the assistant who got the first T walks up and says "Can I ask you guys a question?" and I didn't really want to, but my partner said yeah. So I stand there for a second and he first apologizes then he starts questioning the T. I just said "I'm not going to discuss that with you. If you're not the head coach, keep your mouth shut on the bench," and I walked away. My partner stood there and talked to him for a few minutes. He said the guy thought he was okay to say what he wanted because he ended with "sir."

Here are my questions:
1. Were both T's justified?
2. What could/should I have done differently to prevent the 2nd T?
3. Should I have mentioned my issue to the other official after the game? I'll probably never work with him again so I didn't say anything.
4. I was a bit annoyed that my partner stood there with him because it sort of made me look like a jerk. I didn't feel like I needed to justify it to him and if he couldn't figure it out from what I said, he's an idiot. I found out later he's the Varsity HC. Should I have stayed and given him a better explanation?

I feel like I catch more crap from coaches because I look young (I'm 31 but look like I'm maybe 22) and it wears me out. Maybe it's in my head, but I don't see the older guys on my crew have coaches push them as much it seems like they try to get away with with me.
It is awesome you are in that great of shape, keep bragging.
Yes both T's were justified, were you calm doing them?
You cant avoid the second everyone saw it coming and the bully deserved it.
He is clueless so mentioning it wouldnt help IMO
He was the jerk for staying and talking to the VHC instead of going to the lock room. You dont have to justify. He knows as the VHC he crossed the line and you just took care of business. It never goes well answering a question from someone who gets a T. You can talk until you are blue in the face it will not change their behavior. You are wasting your time. Call a great came and take care of business.

Call your game have fun and keep taking care of business. Sounds like you are doing a great job.
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Old Fri Jan 08, 2016, 10:40am
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UNI,
Keep in mind, I only know what you've told me, so you could be a rookie or about a 12 yr vet. So, I'll offer my opinion on your situation and you may take it FWIW.

First off, I'm also a younger/smaller looking official but have been around long enough to gain respect where needed. With that being said, impressions do get made regardless, by fans and coaches and I do somewhat agree that it's easier to get "worked" when you look younger. So things that help with that are trying to be the "R" more often than not. Work on your pre-game conference and impress coaches with a thorough speech. Work on good mechanics and a strong confident whistle. Show confidence in your calls and obviously knowledge of the rules and applying them correctly is paramount. With those things in place, any poor first impressions should be gone a few plays into the game.

Onto your situation and 4 questions...
While the comments from the assistant are not warranted in the least, you may have been better off halting play on the next dead ball and having a short discussion with the head coach in regards to his bench personnel. Something along the lines of "Coach, please take control of your bench/assistant. We're not going to listen to anymore of their comments before issuing a technical and that will also result in an indirect against you."

As for the HC technical, I would suggest using a different set of words for the coach in that situation. Again, his actions were also unwarranted and disrespectful and his statement is incorrect as he's implying that you're not paying attention to the game, while also implying that his bench can basically do whatever they want as you're not supposed to pay attention to them. But, even though it wasn't your intent, your original statement could come off as threatening or derogatory. Something better might be, "Coach...please go back to your bench." But would this have avoided the T? Who knows? Honestly, if he was already face to face with you, there is no excuse for that at all. You could've backed up or walked away after administering the technical and if the coach expresses that he'd like to discuss it then, you can appease him but only if he agrees to do so in a decent manner. Going back to my first point...had you informed him earlier about his bench personnel, you'd have 120% justification for the technical and he'd have nothing to question you about.

So...were both justified?
Maybe both could've been avoided, but were you wrong in calling both? No.
And depending on timing, your partner could've switched with you to take some heat off you and move you away from the coach. But things happen quickly on the court, and you also don't want to leave 10 players unattended.
Things like that can sometimes be difficult with only 2 officials.

You could've brought the situation up post-game with your partner and get his take on it. Take his opinion with a grain of salt, just as you would any other official and determine if it's worthwhile.

Also, you honestly don't owe anything to the coach post-game, even in a JV game. And this goes along with confidence in your calls. Right or wrong, that's how you saw it, that's how you called it, move on, game on, game over. Your area may be different, but we leave the court immediately once the horn sounds (an obviously if we're positive the game ended correctly)

Coaches are strange birds...when talking to them, you don't want to be the guy who ignores them completely. But you also don't need to give them a thesis on why you called what you did. I always let them know, "quick questions/quick answers". I've heard others say, "Coach, do you have a question?" If not, then we have nothing to discuss. When coaches ask questions, they deserve answers. But when they're just spouting off at the mouth, there are fine lines and key words that warrant penalties. But also, if you are discussing with coaches, avoid certain key words as well.

If you felt the need to appease him post-game or even when he questioned the bench technical, "Coach, I had heard enough from your bench and didn't like their last comment that questioned our judgement on calls."

And LOL at him thinking he can say whatever he wants because he adds 'sir' to the end. Reminds me of Ricky Bobby....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af-Id_fuXFA
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Old Fri Jan 08, 2016, 10:41am
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That would change a bit considering the new information to B- for JV and C- for V.

But it's really only on this small incident. The rest of the game could have been great and the overall score could well be B+/A-.
How could I handle it in the future to be an A?
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Old Fri Jan 08, 2016, 11:00am
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Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
How could I handle it in the future to be an A?
My initial response, as well as what others have said. Ting up an assistant without at least giving the HC an opportunity to deal with his/her bench is one thing first off. The assistant didn't say something that was so T worthy that a quick "coach please keep your bench in order" wouldn't have solved or setup the easy T later.

With the HC, "please get back to your bench I'll come to you" or "I heard you coach, lets move on." and then you report and leave. If he continues towards you easy T (which is what happened). In all honesty what you did here with the HC wasn't that bad, he earned his T. But the bigger point is you could have possibly avoided 2 T's with a "coach please keep your bench in order" type of comment.

After a game if a coach approaches me, and this works for me so Im not saying you have to adopt it, and has a genuine question about WHY I called something I have no problem discussing with them. The operative word is discussing. NOT them talking at me.

I also would stay away from saying things like "keep your mouth shut on the bench." to them. They are adults, even though they may not act like it, and we can treat them like adults.

I will also preface this with the fact that in my last 2 games I DID NOT give T's to HC's that were deserved and it has been chewing at me. So maybe fire away and clear the bodies later, what do I know?
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Old Fri Jan 08, 2016, 11:06am
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How could I handle it in the future to be an A?
Ignore his evaluation.

You handled this just fine. The whole notion that you have to give a warning to the HC to control his bench before calling a T on that bench is ridiculous. Every coach knows the role of the Assistants. If they want to step out of that role, they get what they earn.
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Old Fri Jan 08, 2016, 11:10am
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....

And as long as the guy was apologizing and not being confrontational after the game, I feel like it would be good form to talk to the guy through your thinking. ....
I'm not sticking around for conversations. They go just like UNI described: "first apologizes then he starts questioning the T".

I was serious about my sports bar remark. If he wants to talk, then do it away from the venue as 2 individuals having a casual conversation. Funny thing is, I've bumped into plenty of coaches out and about and never once has any of them discussed anything related to games I've worked or anything about officiating in their games. I've even bumped into a coach whom I had T'd up and he didn't even recognize me. Coaches know full well why they get T's. We don't need to stick around to explain to them why.
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Old Fri Jan 08, 2016, 11:11am
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Why was the AC sitting behind the bench?
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