UK vs Louisville--Shot Clock Violation in Final Minute-Reset Clock?

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Kentucky got the ball back with 43.1 seconds left in regulation. They are called for a shot clock violation. Never even got an attempt off. Whistle blows and clock stops with 12.6 seconds left.

Can the officials reset the clock to 13.1 based on definite knowledge of the 43.1 on the clock when UK got the ball? Any allowance for video review in this situation to set the clock properly?

[crosscountry55]

This is not an official NCAA reply. But I will say this: if I'm officiating in CA, RI, SD, etc., and this happens in my game.....to me that's definite knowledge and great heads-up officiating, provided we had a situation where the game and shot clocks started simultaneously (e.g. on a throw-in). Yeah, I'd put the 0.5s back on.


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[bballref3966]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

This is not an official NCAA reply. But I will say this: if I'm officiating in CA, RI, SD, etc., and this happens in my game.....to me that's definite knowledge and great heads-up officiating, provided we had a situation where the game and shot clocks started simultaneously (e.g. on a throw-in). Yeah, I'd put the 0.5s back on.


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The shot clock doesn't necessarily start when the game clock starts on a throw-in. The shot clock starts when there is player control.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by bballref3966

The shot clock doesn't necessarily start when the game clock starts on a throw-in. The shot clock starts when there is player control.

Great point.

So given that PC is a subjective assessment by the SC operator, maybe my situation does not equate to definite knowledge. I am willing to stand corrected.


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[APG]

Originally Posted by bballref3966

The shot clock doesn't necessarily start when the game clock starts on a throw-in. The shot clock starts when there is player control.

When coming from a throw-in, the shot clock starts when it's legally touched inbounds

[bballref3966]

Originally Posted by APG

When coming from a throw-in, the shot clock starts when it's legally touched inbounds

Whoops, that's what I going off my own NCAA knowledge and not the book.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

This is not an official NCAA reply. But I will say this: if I'm officiating in CA, RI, SD, etc., and this happens in my game.....to me that's definite knowledge and great heads-up officiating, provided we had a situation where the game and shot clocks started simultaneously (e.g. on a throw-in). Yeah, I'd put the 0.5s back on.


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You would be wrong to do that in CA.

[bob jenkins]

In NCAAW, yes, they should reset the clock, if I understand the play.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You would be wrong to do that in CA.

Not saying you're wrong, but mind if I ask why? Assuming SC on throw-in starts when legally touched in CA (same rule that APG cites), why not take this into consideration as definite knowledge?


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[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Not saying you're wrong, but mind if I ask why? Assuming SC on throw-in starts when legally touched in CA (same rule that APG cites), why not take this into consideration as definite knowledge?


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CA plays by the NFHS rules, except for the modifications made by the CIF and various Section offices.

In the CIF modifications document on the shot clock the following appears, [the shot clock operator shall] "Sound the shot-clock horn at the expiration of the shot-clock period. This shot-clock horn shall not stop play unless recognized by an official’s whistle."

So the whistle is what matters to the players and timer(s), not the horn, and according to NFHS rules that is when the timer is to stop the game clock. Therefore, if the timer stopped the game clock upon the sounding of the official's whistle and not the horn, no obvious timing error has occurred and the referee is not justified in altering the game clock. The game clock does not automatically stop at the sounding of the shot clock horn, even when no try for goal is involved.

Just as is the case for a travel or a foul, if the official's whistle lags the exact moment of the violation or foul, by rule, the game clock stops a little bit after the violation or foul. CA high school officials do not have a courtside monitor and therefore cannot restore the game clock to the exact time of the violation or foul as is done in NCAA contests. Officials working HS games need to adhere to HS rules, not college rulings.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

CA plays by the NFHS rules, except for the modifications made by the CIF and various Section offices.

In the CIF modifications document on the shot clock the following appears, [the shot clock operator shall] "Sound the shot-clock horn at the expiration of the shot-clock period. This shot-clock horn shall not stop play unless recognized by an official’s whistle."

So the whistle is what matters to the players and timer(s), not the horn, and according to NFHS rules that is when the timer is to stop the game clock. Therefore, if the timer stopped the game clock upon the sounding of the official's whistle and not the horn, no obvious timing error has occurred and the referee is not justified in altering the game clock. The game clock does not automatically stop at the sounding of the shot clock horn, even when no try for goal is involved.

Just as is the case for a travel or a foul, if the official's whistle lags the exact moment of the violation or foul, by rule, the game clock stops a little bit after the violation or foul. CA high school officials do not have a courtside monitor and therefore cannot restore the game clock to the exact time of the violation or foul as is done in NCAA contests. Officials working HS games need to adhere to HS rules, not college rulings.

I don't know how current it is but here's the language I found from CIF on shot-clock violations:

The team in control shall attempt a try for field goal within the allotted shot-clock time. The try shall leave the player’s hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time. Following the release, the try subsequently shall strike the basket ring or enter the basket before or after the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time.

Penalty
The ball becomes dead when the violation occurs.

Here's the language in the NCAA rule books:

NCAA 9-11-3 & 4
The team in control must attempt a try as in 9-11.2 for field goal within 30 seconds after the shot-clock period begins.

It is a violation when a try for field goal does not leave the shooter’s hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time (as indicated by the sounding of the shot-clock horn) or when it does leave the shooter’s hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time and the try does not
subsequently strike the ring or flange or enter the basket.

So they're the same. If that's the case - and, under CIF rules, the ball becomes dead when the violation occurs - why wouldn't you reset the clock if the violation was for failing to release a shot-clock try before the expiration of the shot-clock period? The violation is failure to attempt a shot-clock try before 30 seconds expire. If the officials in a similar CIF situation knew the possession started with 43.1 on the clock it would seem the rules provide leeway for the clock to be reset to the point of the violation (13.1).