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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 26, 2015, 02:19pm
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UK vs Louisville--Shot Clock Violation in Final Minute-Reset Clock?

Kentucky got the ball back with 43.1 seconds left in regulation. They are called for a shot clock violation. Never even got an attempt off. Whistle blows and clock stops with 12.6 seconds left.

Can the officials reset the clock to 13.1 based on definite knowledge of the 43.1 on the clock when UK got the ball? Any allowance for video review in this situation to set the clock properly?
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Old Sat Dec 26, 2015, 04:17pm
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This is not an official NCAA reply. But I will say this: if I'm officiating in CA, RI, SD, etc., and this happens in my game.....to me that's definite knowledge and great heads-up officiating, provided we had a situation where the game and shot clocks started simultaneously (e.g. on a throw-in). Yeah, I'd put the 0.5s back on.


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Old Sat Dec 26, 2015, 08:13pm
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Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
This is not an official NCAA reply. But I will say this: if I'm officiating in CA, RI, SD, etc., and this happens in my game.....to me that's definite knowledge and great heads-up officiating, provided we had a situation where the game and shot clocks started simultaneously (e.g. on a throw-in). Yeah, I'd put the 0.5s back on.


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The shot clock doesn't necessarily start when the game clock starts on a throw-in. The shot clock starts when there is player control.
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Old Sat Dec 26, 2015, 08:17pm
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Originally Posted by bballref3966 View Post
The shot clock doesn't necessarily start when the game clock starts on a throw-in. The shot clock starts when there is player control.

Great point.

So given that PC is a subjective assessment by the SC operator, maybe my situation does not equate to definite knowledge. I am willing to stand corrected.


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Old Sat Dec 26, 2015, 08:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bballref3966 View Post
The shot clock doesn't necessarily start when the game clock starts on a throw-in. The shot clock starts when there is player control.
When coming from a throw-in, the shot clock starts when it's legally touched inbounds
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Old Sat Dec 26, 2015, 08:42pm
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Originally Posted by APG View Post
When coming from a throw-in, the shot clock starts when it's legally touched inbounds
Whoops, that's what I going off my own NCAA knowledge and not the book.
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Old Sat Dec 26, 2015, 10:23pm
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Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
This is not an official NCAA reply. But I will say this: if I'm officiating in CA, RI, SD, etc., and this happens in my game.....to me that's definite knowledge and great heads-up officiating, provided we had a situation where the game and shot clocks started simultaneously (e.g. on a throw-in). Yeah, I'd put the 0.5s back on.


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You would be wrong to do that in CA.
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Old Sat Dec 26, 2015, 10:59pm
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In NCAAW, yes, they should reset the clock, if I understand the play.
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Old Sat Dec 26, 2015, 11:57pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
You would be wrong to do that in CA.

Not saying you're wrong, but mind if I ask why? Assuming SC on throw-in starts when legally touched in CA (same rule that APG cites), why not take this into consideration as definite knowledge?


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Old Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:58am
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Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
Not saying you're wrong, but mind if I ask why? Assuming SC on throw-in starts when legally touched in CA (same rule that APG cites), why not take this into consideration as definite knowledge?


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CA plays by the NFHS rules, except for the modifications made by the CIF and various Section offices.

In the CIF modifications document on the shot clock the following appears, [the shot clock operator shall] "Sound the shot-clock horn at the expiration of the shot-clock period. This shot-clock horn shall not stop play unless recognized by an official’s whistle."

So the whistle is what matters to the players and timer(s), not the horn, and according to NFHS rules that is when the timer is to stop the game clock. Therefore, if the timer stopped the game clock upon the sounding of the official's whistle and not the horn, no obvious timing error has occurred and the referee is not justified in altering the game clock. The game clock does not automatically stop at the sounding of the shot clock horn, even when no try for goal is involved.

Just as is the case for a travel or a foul, if the official's whistle lags the exact moment of the violation or foul, by rule, the game clock stops a little bit after the violation or foul. CA high school officials do not have a courtside monitor and therefore cannot restore the game clock to the exact time of the violation or foul as is done in NCAA contests. Officials working HS games need to adhere to HS rules, not college rulings.
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Old Sun Dec 27, 2015, 12:36pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
CA plays by the NFHS rules, except for the modifications made by the CIF and various Section offices.

In the CIF modifications document on the shot clock the following appears, [the shot clock operator shall] "Sound the shot-clock horn at the expiration of the shot-clock period. This shot-clock horn shall not stop play unless recognized by an official’s whistle."

So the whistle is what matters to the players and timer(s), not the horn, and according to NFHS rules that is when the timer is to stop the game clock. Therefore, if the timer stopped the game clock upon the sounding of the official's whistle and not the horn, no obvious timing error has occurred and the referee is not justified in altering the game clock. The game clock does not automatically stop at the sounding of the shot clock horn, even when no try for goal is involved.

Just as is the case for a travel or a foul, if the official's whistle lags the exact moment of the violation or foul, by rule, the game clock stops a little bit after the violation or foul. CA high school officials do not have a courtside monitor and therefore cannot restore the game clock to the exact time of the violation or foul as is done in NCAA contests. Officials working HS games need to adhere to HS rules, not college rulings.
I don't know how current it is but here's the language I found from CIF on shot-clock violations:

Quote:
The team in control shall attempt a try for field goal within the allotted shot-clock time. The try shall leave the player’s hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time. Following the release, the try subsequently shall strike the basket ring or enter the basket before or after the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time.

Penalty
The ball becomes dead when the violation occurs.
Here's the language in the NCAA rule books:

Quote:
NCAA 9-11-3 & 4
The team in control must attempt a try as in 9-11.2 for field goal within 30 seconds after the shot-clock period begins.

It is a violation when a try for field goal does not leave the shooter’s hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time (as indicated by the sounding of the shot-clock horn) or when it does leave the shooter’s hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time and the try does not
subsequently strike the ring or flange or enter the basket.
So they're the same. If that's the case - and, under CIF rules, the ball becomes dead when the violation occurs - why wouldn't you reset the clock if the violation was for failing to release a shot-clock try before the expiration of the shot-clock period? The violation is failure to attempt a shot-clock try before 30 seconds expire. If the officials in a similar CIF situation knew the possession started with 43.1 on the clock it would seem the rules provide leeway for the clock to be reset to the point of the violation (13.1).
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Old Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:06pm
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Because it is not the time of the violation when BY RULE the timer is to stop the game clock, but upon the sounding of the official's whistle to recognize such violation. I believe that I was clear about that in my previous post.

Just as if a travel were to occur at 13.1 seconds remaining and the official whistles for it at 12.7, the correct time for the game clock would be 12.7, not the time of the violation.
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Old Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:29pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Because it is not the time of the violation when BY RULE the timer is to stop the game clock, but upon the sounding of the official's whistle to recognize such violation. I believe that I was clear about that in my previous post.

Just as if a travel were to occur at 13.1 seconds remaining and the official whistles for it at 12.7, the correct time for the game clock would be 12.7, not the time of the violation.
I would only agree on shot clock violations where the ball was shot and failed to hit the rim. Then there may be discrepancy between game and shot clock. However in the case where a player is dribbling and the officials blow the whistle, say a second after the horn, I would go with the math and deduct the shot clock from game clock as what to set my timer at.
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Old Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:46pm
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Originally Posted by deecee View Post
I would only agree on shot clock violations where the ball was shot and failed to hit the rim. Then there may be discrepancy between game and shot clock. However in the case where a player is dribbling and the officials blow the whistle, say a second after the horn, I would go with the math and deduct the shot clock from game clock as what to set my timer at.
Real officials follow the rules, not make up their own.

For example, the clock rules for a shot clock violation due to an airball are different in the NBA and NCAA. The people working those games don't just decide upon a number to tell the timer. They follow the rule for the level of play that they are working.
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Old Sun Dec 27, 2015, 05:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Real officials follow the rules, not make up their own.
Are you suggesting he is making up his own rules? If I am running down to Lead and see the game clock at 45.3 and the shot clock at 30 and we have a shot clock violation on the ensuing possession then you bet your but I am putting 15.3 on the game clock before the next inbound, even if the timer is slow and only stops the game clock at 13.9 for example.
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