Two Entire Rosters Suspended

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Adam

You're just as likely to get sued for grabbing a 16 y/o kid and pulling him away from a fight.

You're just as likely to get sued for grabbing a 16 y/o kid and leaving him exposed to a punch from the opponent.

Once the punches start getting thrown, nothing you do is going to be sue-proof, so take down numbers and stay out of the way. Keep blowing your whistle, use your voice, but I would be very wary of getting into the fray to break it up once it's started.

I agree completely.

Rule number one: NEVER put your hands on a player.

If I can get between them before they start swinging I will, but once the punches start, no way. As Adam said, use your whistle and voice.

And if I'm the away official I'm not going to go running into the fray, but will go near the table and instruct the scorer to write down the color/number of every player I see leave the bench and enter the court as I verbally recite them.

[Refhoop]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

I agree completely.

Rule number one: NEVER put your hands on a player.

If I can get between them before they start swinging I will, but once the punches start, no way. As Adam said, use your whistle and voice.

I willing to bet that the same litigious jerk that would sue you for pulling the kid away, will sue you if that same kid got hurt in the fight.
Notice the coach: pointing and seemingly blaming.
Go ahead and say to the suit happy lawyer and parent: "not it'. I'm betting, "You're it" - like it or not!

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

I willing to bet that the same litigious jerk that would sue you for pulling the kid away, will sue you if that same kid got hurt in the fight.
Notice the coach: pointing and seemingly blaming.
Go ahead and say to the suit happy lawyer and parent: "not it'. I'm betting, "You're it" - like it or not!

You might want to rethink what your scope of practice is as an official.

We are employed as game officials, not as trained police officers, security guards or bouncers, and acting as such would more likely open an official up to liability for acting outside their scope of practice. Just like we never render aid to a possibly injured player - that's the coach's and trainer's responsibility.

Maintaining order in the facility and providing adequate security is the responsibility of game management - even more so when fans get involved. The head coaches are responsible for their players, and the gym supervisor and security/police for everyone else.

[Refhoop]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

You might want to rethink what your scope of practice is as an official.

We are employed as game officials, not as trained police officers, security guards or bouncers, and acting as such would more likely open an official up to liability for acting outside their scope of practice. Just like we never render aid to a possibly injured player - that's the coach's and trainer's responsibility.

Maintaining order in the facility and providing adequate security is the responsibility of game management - even more so when fans get involved. The head coaches are responsible for their players, and the gym supervisor and security/police for everyone else.

Are we not the police of the game on the court w/ our number one job being: Player Safety?
I didn't say police the entire gym: just the safety of the players on the floor which is where I have jurisdiction.
When safety is number one; how do we justify ourselves by doing nothing?
Our high school rule book says: safety, fair play and sportsmanship is the reason we are there!

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

Are we not the police of the game on the court w/ our number one job being: Player Safety?
I didn't say police the entire gym: just the safety of the players on the floor which is where I have jurisdiction.
When safety is number one; how do we justify ourselves by doing nothing?
Our high school rule book says: safety, fair play and sportsmanship is the reason we are there!

Does your state association provide training, certification and guidelines on how to physically break up a fight on the court? If not, then it is not in your scope of practice as an official.

I never said "do nothing", what I said is I agree with Adam that once the punches start we do not get physically involved - we use our whistle and voice to try to control it as much as we can.

[Refhoop]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Does your state association provide training, certification and guidelines on how to physically break up a fight on the court? If not, then it is not in your scope of practice as an official.

I never said "do nothing", what I said is I agree with Adam that once the punches start we do not get physically involved - we use our whistle and voice to try to control it as much as we can.

That's a good defense in court:
"my state doesn't provide training, and I don't know why the kid didn't respond to my whistle or voice".
Q. What training did your state give you in dealing with a fight?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

That's a good defense in court:
"my state doesn't provide training, and I don't know why the kid didn't respond to my whistle or voice".
Q. What training did your state give you in dealing with a fight?

A. None.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

That's a good defense in court:
"my state doesn't provide training, and I don't know why the kid didn't respond to my whistle or voice".
Q. What training did your state give you in dealing with a fight?

We are trained to follow NFHS protocol and guidelines - see my post above (#40)

NFHS 2015-2017 Basketball Officials Manual

page 11

1.4.3.C. Should a fight occur, use your voice and whistle to gain the attention of players.

1.4.3.D. Do not touch, hold or grab players - both for your own safety and for liability concerns.

1.4.3.E. One official should remain away from the action and observe non-participating players and bench personel.

Clear enough?

[SaccoVanzetti]

I'm 99.9% never going to get involved in a fight. Could there be a situation? Say on a fastbreak, 8 players go. Maybe one or two trip and are on the ground and you as a trail are staying back to make sure it clears up. They start fighting and one is hurting the other. Maybe then you step in to stop it. Say other players and coaches are watching the ball and no one but you can stop the actions so that could be a situation when I would step in but even then I'm not sure. It would be stupid for refs to get involved in fights. Coaches and players should be the ones breaking it up.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

I willing to bet that the same litigious jerk that would sue you for pulling the kid away, will sue you if that same kid got hurt in the fight.
Notice the coach: pointing and seemingly blaming.
Go ahead and say to the suit happy lawyer and parent: "not it'. I'm betting, "You're it" - like it or not!

The suit may be equally likely either way (I'm not convinced, but I'm willing to concede that point for discussion.)

But it seems to me, from the perspective of a father who is not an actual lawyer, that the likelihood of a successful suit would be much higher if I put my hands on a kid as opposed to doing everything verbally and audibly to stop a fight.

Again, there's no way in hell I'm putting my hands on a kid to physically move him or her in this situation.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Close. You won't see Violet or Laura getting in there -- they have instructed not to.

Originally Posted by Rich

Laura?

I think he meant Lauren Holtkamp.

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I think he meant Lauren Holtkamp.

Yep. Lauren.

[Refhoop]

Originally Posted by Adam

The suit may be equally likely either way (I'm not convinced, but I'm willing to concede that point for discussion.)

But it seems to me, from the perspective of a father who is not an actual lawyer, that the likelihood of a successful suit would be much higher if I put my hands on a kid as opposed to doing everything verbally and audibly to stop a fight.

Again, there's no way in hell I'm putting my hands on a kid to physically move him or her in this situation.

Where is this written: "never touch a player"? Have there been lawsuits resulting from officials breaking up fights?
BTW: I do like whistles and yelling at players. I say, blow the whistle till their all deaf.
But... standing back and doing nothing like the L official in the video?

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

Where is this written: "never touch a player"? Have there been lawsuits resulting from officials breaking up fights?
BTW: I do like whistles and yelling at players. I say, blow the whistle till their all deaf.
But... standing back and doing nothing like the L official in the video?

I don't think he was "doing nothing." I think he was observing what was happening and taking down numbers. C was doing the exact same thing on the other side of things.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

Where is this written: "never touch a player"? Have there been lawsuits resulting from officials breaking up fights?

Where have there been lawsuits for not breaking up fights? As others have mentioned, 95% of us have never been trained in breaking up fights. You grab a player's arms and restrain him, then his opponent spots an opportunity. You grab a player's shoulder and accidentally grab her chest. You grab a player and pull him away from a fight and he trips and falls backwards, hitting his head on the floor.

Before you say these are all unlikely and you've never seen them; it's probably because the vast majority (an understatement) of officials do not get physically involved in a fight. And as unlikely as my scenarios are, they are more likely than some pissed off dad deciding to sue the officials for not stopping a fight combined with a lawyer willing to take the case on contingency combined with a judge/jury willing to find in favor of the plaintiff.

I'm keeping my hands off and advising others do the same. You do what you think is best.