Two Entire Rosters Suspended

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

Everyone has to do whatever they're most comfortable doing.
The T is old school - he's obviously got training or just instincts that say: "No way and not today".
The advice of "never touch a player" is not always appropriate. If I see a kid stomping a defenseless kids' head MMA Pride style - I defending the helpless. A kid gets his head rammed into that wall and goes down... go ahead an back away if you dare?
"Never touch a player" is an overstatement.
"Extreme caution and in rare instances"; is maybe more appropriate?

the day you see a kid stomping the head of another "MMA Pride style" I'll recommend you go ahead and step in.

If a kid pulls out a gun on the court and I have a chance to stop him, I'll go ahead and tackle him. But I'm not going to use the sasquatch play as a basis of advice for fights that occur far more regularly.

[Refhoop]

Originally Posted by Adam

the day you see a kid stomping the head of another "MMA Pride style" I'll recommend you go ahead and step in.

If a kid pulls out a gun on the court and I have a chance to stop him, I'll go ahead and tackle him. But I'm not going to use the sasquatch play as a basis of advice for fights that occur far more regularly.

My thoughts exactly: A little caution is necessary when using words like never and always.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

Sub varsity game:Very often there is only one coach and he left the other immature minors to run on the court... likely they will follow him - unfortunately.
So to "stir the pot"
Do we really need the coach on the floor for a fight?
I was at the NASO conference in STL this summer and during a presentation, an attorney said: Good officials Don't let athletes fight during their game"... He goes on to say: Don't think you won't be sued if a kid gets hurt during that fight and there's video footage of you standing there watching.
His illustration was NBA officals: Arguably the best officials in our game.
His question: Do you ever see NBA Officials backing away from a fight?
Answer: Hell no! They are dealing with the strongest basketball players in the world and they stop the fight - always!

That attorney's a ****ing idiot. They can sue all they want--it isn't going anywhere. Now, if a kid gets hurt because you try to break up a fight and either injure him or contribute to another injuring him...those would hold more water.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Matt

That attorney's a ****ing idiot. They can sue all they want--it isn't going anywhere. Now, if a kid gets hurt because you try to break up a fight and either injure him or contribute to another injuring him...those would hold more water.

I could call Alan Goldberger a lot of things, but an ****ing idiot would be near the bottom of that list. He's the preeminent attorney when it comes to sports officiating matters and he knows what he's talking about.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Rich

I could call Alan Goldberger a lot of things, but an ****ing idiot would be near the bottom of that list. He's the preeminent attorney when it comes to sports officiating matters and he knows what he's talking about.

Not in this case (no pun intended.)

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Matt

Not in this case (no pun intended.)

What's your area of expertise that would trump his?

(I'm asking this seriously. You could be a top notch attorney and I simply wouldn't know.)

[Refhoop]

Originally Posted by Matt

That attorney's a ****ing idiot. They can sue all they want--it isn't going anywhere. Now, if a kid gets hurt because you try to break up a fight and either injure him or contribute to another injuring him...those would hold more water.

Lawsuit doesn't have to amount to anything, but it still cost to defend yourself.
Had there been an injury and that video was submitted as evidence... That Lead has some explaining to do.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

Lawsuit doesn't have to amount to anything, but it still cost to defend yourself.
Had there been an injury and that video was submitted as evidence... That Lead has some explaining to do.

Wouldn't cost me anything but time and a phone call -- it's why I have been an NASO member for a long time.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

Are we not the police of the game on the court w/ our number one job being: Player Safety?
I didn't say police the entire gym: just the safety of the players on the floor which is where I have jurisdiction.
When safety is number one; how do we justify ourselves by doing nothing?
Our high school rule book says: safety, fair play and sportsmanship is the reason we are there!

Does your state association provide training, certification and guidelines on how to physically break up a fight on the court? If not, then it is not in your scope of practice as an official.

I never said "do nothing", what I said is I agree with Adam that once the punches start we do not get physically involved - we use our whistle and voice to try to control it as much as we can.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

Where is this written: "never touch a player"?

Maybe you should read your books.

NFHS 2015-2017 Basketball Officials Manual

page 11

1.4.3.C. Should a fight occur, use your voice and whistle to gain the attention of players.

1.4.3.D. Do not touch, hold or grab players - both for your own safety and for liability concerns.

1.4.3.E. One official should remain away from the action and observe non-participating players and bench personel.

Clear enough?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

Lawsuit doesn't have to amount to anything, but it still cost to defend yourself.
Had there been an injury and that video was submitted as evidence... That Lead has some explaining to do.

No, he doesn't. He's not a cop, he's not security. Not his job nor is it assumed that he would have competence in physically ending a brawl. Hell, that WAS my real job (along with others in our association) and we were told that we were not to act any differently from any other official in brawl situations (not that we had to be told, because we know better.)

[Refhoop]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Does your state association provide training, certification and guidelines on how to physically break up a fight on the court? If not, then it is not in your scope of practice as an official.

I never said "do nothing", what I said is I agree with Adam that once the punches start we do not get physically involved - we use our whistle and voice to try to control it as much as we can.

That's a good defense in court:
"my state doesn't provide training, and I don't know why the kid didn't respond to my whistle or voice".
Q. What training did your state give you in dealing with a fight?

[SaccoVanzetti]

I'm 99.9% never going to get involved in a fight. Could there be a situation? Say on a fastbreak, 8 players go. Maybe one or two trip and are on the ground and you as a trail are staying back to make sure it clears up. They start fighting and one is hurting the other. Maybe then you step in to stop it. Say other players and coaches are watching the ball and no one but you can stop the actions so that could be a situation when I would step in but even then I'm not sure. It would be stupid for refs to get involved in fights. Coaches and players should be the ones breaking it up.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

That's a good defense in court:
"my state doesn't provide training, and I don't know why the kid didn't respond to my whistle or voice".
Q. What training did your state give you in dealing with a fight?

A. None.

[Refhoop]

Originally Posted by Matt

No, he doesn't. He's not a cop, he's not security. we were told that we were not to act any differently from any other official in brawl situations

Seems like every school official in the building and even some parents are trying to break up this fight.
Is the trail official doing anything wrong?