I also cannot think straight

[kycat1]

I'm confused on the "fumble rule" and would love a ruling as I cannot find anything in the HS rule book except the definition and this does not help interpret certain plays.
Play - A1 finishes his dribble, looks to throw the ball to another player but stops his throw as the other player breaks the other way and it fumbles out of A1's hands onto the floor. A1 takes 2 or 3 steps and pick up the all. He does not dribble again, he just picks it up. What is the ruling?

There is nothing in the case book now but I remember from a past case play that if the ref deemed it to be truly a fumble (and not a pass that he goes and gets because the other player broke the other way), he or she may go pick it up because you cannot walk or double dribble when you have no player control.

What is the ruling?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by kycat1

I'm confused on the "fumble rule" and would love a ruling as I cannot find anything in the HS rule book except the definition and this does not help interpret certain plays.
Play - A1 finishes his dribble, looks to throw the ball to another player but stops his throw as the other player breaks the other way and it fumbles out of A1's hands onto the floor. A1 takes 2 or 3 steps and pick up the all. He does not dribble again, he just picks it up. What is the ruling?

There is nothing in the case book now but I remember from a past case play that if the ref deemed it to be truly a fumble (and not a pass that he goes and gets because the other player broke the other way), he or she may go pick it up because you cannot walk or double dribble when you have no player control.

What is the ruling?

Illegal dribble. The throw started a dribble so the player cannot be the first to touch. you can fumble-dribble-fumble but you cannot dribble-fumble-dribble.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by deecee

Illegal dribble. The throw started a dribble so the player cannot be the first to touch. you can fumble-dribble-fumble but you cannot dribble-fumble-dribble.

The OP said he made the judgment that this was a fumble and not a pass. So I don't believe this is an illegal dribble.

Agree you cannot dribble-fumble-dribble. But what was described was dribble-fumble-retrieve. That's legal.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

The OP said he made the judgment that this was a fumble and not a pass. So I don't believe this is an illegal dribble.

Agree you cannot dribble-fumble-dribble. But what was described was dribble-fumble-retrieve. That's legal.

You cannot just "fumble" a pass then be the first to touch it. There are allowances for fumbling a ball that is thrown to you and then you pick it up and start a dribble, fumbling a dribble off your foot and recovering the dribble (interrupted dribble), but I don't think you can change your mind on a pass after you end your dribble, let the ball bounce then pick it up without committing a "double" dribble.

The ball hitting the ground was start of a second dribble if touched by the same offensive player. IF there are rule/case plays that prove I'm wrong please cite.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by deecee

IF there are rule/case plays that prove I'm wrong please cite.

I can't because this is a HTBT kind of play, or we'd at least need to see video to talk about the official's judgment.

I could certainly see a player start a pass, realize his man isn't there, then reach out with the non-throwing hand to stop the throwing motion and secure the ball. And then fumble.

Tiger Woods has been known to check a golf swing mid-stroke. Tennis players sometimes stop a serve post-toss and start over. What's to say a point guard with good reflexes also couldn't stop a passing motion mid-throw?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I can't because this is a HTBT kind of play, or we'd at least need to see video to talk about the official's judgment.

I could certainly see a player start a pass, realize his man isn't there, then reach out with the non-throwing hand to stop the throwing motion and secure the ball. And then fumble.

Tiger Woods has been known to check a golf swing mid-stroke. Tennis players sometimes stop a serve post-toss and start over. What's to say a point guard with good reflexes also couldn't stop a passing motion mid-throw?

as long as the ball doesnt leave his hand and hit the floor we are all good.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by deecee

Illegal dribble. The throw started a dribble so the player cannot be the first to touch. you can fumble-dribble-fumble but you cannot dribble-fumble-dribble.

Please look up the definition of dribble and then compare it to what the OP actually says before you spew this nonsense.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Please look up the definition of dribble and then compare it to what the OP actually says before you spew this nonsense.

Before you try and get into a match of wits I'll spell it out for you since your rule book is probably misplaced

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when teh ball touches a player's own backboard.

1-15-3: The dribble begins by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

Now, stay with me, because it may go over your head. How can a player with control go to make a pass (an intentional act) then intentionally change his mind, and you call that a FUMBLE?????

A fumble is when a player goes to pick up his dribble cut FUMBLES gathering the ball. You can't have control of the ball with both hands go to pass, change your mind and then suddenly FUMBLE. It's throwing the ball to the floor and the start of a dribble.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by deecee

Before you try and get into a match of wits I'll spell it out for you since your rule book is probably misplaced

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when teh ball touches a player's own backboard.

1-15-3: The dribble begins by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

Now, stay with me, because it may go over your head. How can a player with control go to make a pass (an intentional act) then intentionally change his mind, and you call that a FUMBLE?????

A fumble is when a player goes to pick up his dribble cut FUMBLES gathering the ball. You can't have control of the ball with both hands go to pass, change your mind and then suddenly FUMBLE. It's throwing the ball to the floor and the start of a dribble.

I was about to defend Deecee's post, but it was done before I could hit reply.

If you're going to claim nonsense at someone try to at least back it up.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by deecee

Before you try and get into a match of wits I'll spell it out for you since your rule book is probably misplaced

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when teh ball touches a player's own backboard.

1-15-3: The dribble begins by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

Now, stay with me, because it may go over your head. How can a player with control go to make a pass (an intentional act) then intentionally change his mind, and you call that a FUMBLE?????

A fumble is when a player goes to pick up his dribble cut FUMBLES gathering the ball. You can't have control of the ball with both hands go to pass, change your mind and then suddenly FUMBLE. It's throwing the ball to the floor and the start of a dribble.

A fumble is the ACCIDENTAl loss of player control when ball unintentionally drops or slips from player's grasp. It is not limited to ending a dribble. In this play if the player starts to pass it to A1 but changes his mine and tries to hold on but ball "drops or slips" unintentionally, it is a fumble. On the other hand, if the player changes his mind and just throws the pass with not much on it, that would be a dribble if he went and got it. The OP said fumble. That word means ball slips. Fumble is a.....fumble. I'd really have to see the play. Fumbles are not limited to ending a dribble. Thx

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BigCat

A fumble is the ACCIDENTAl loss of player control when ball unintentionally drops or slips from player's grasp. It is not limited to ending a dribble. In this play if the player starts to pass it to A1 but changes his mine and tries to hold on but ball "drops or slips" unintentionally, it is a fumble. On the other hand, if the player changes his mind and just throws the pass with not much on it, that would be a dribble if he went and got it. The OP said fumble. That word means ball slips. Fumble is a.....fumble. I'd really have to see the play. Fumbles are not limited to ending a dribble. Thx

After 15 years I think I know what a fumble is. In this instance with what was described I would not call this a fumble. Changing your mind on a pass and deciding to try and hold on the ball but the ball still pops out is a pass, albeit crappy one, in my book. I'm not rewarding bad offense or penalizing good defense here.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by deecee

Before you try and get into a match of wits I'll spell it out for you since your rule book is probably misplaced

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when teh ball touches a player's own backboard.

1-15-3: The dribble begins by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

Now, stay with me, because it may go over your head. How can a player with control go to make a pass (an intentional act) then intentionally change his mind, and you call that a FUMBLE?????

A fumble is when a player goes to pick up his dribble cut FUMBLES gathering the ball. You can't have control of the ball with both hands go to pass, change your mind and then suddenly FUMBLE. It's throwing the ball to the floor and the start of a dribble.

Changing your mind in the middle of the pass and losing control of the ball is not an intentional act of striking the ball or pushing it to the floor. It is called a fumble, by definition, as determined by the rule makers of the game. Unfortunately as you can see below, they have a different definition of what a fumble is than you do (see below). As with most things you comment on here, it seems as though you have been messing this up for 15 years as well.

FUMBLE
A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player's grasp.
A fumble may be legally recovered by any player

Changing your mind in the middle of a pass and then losing control of the ball is a fumble. Fumbles are not, nor have they ever been limited to losing control of the ball right after stopping your dribble as you insist.

And just to make sure you understand your limited grasp of the English language has prevented you from understanding this rule your entire officiating career, please try on the following case book plays, which in no way fit into your opinion of what a fumble is.

After ending a dribble, A1 leaves the playing court to attempt a try for goal. While airborne, A1 fumbles the ball and:

1. Recovers the fumble while airborne, returns to the floor, and dribbles the ball or
2. Recovers the fumble after returning to the floor and then dribbles the ball.

Ruling: Violation in both 1 and 2. (Next sentence is key, read carefully) A1 is permitted to recover the ball but after recovering the ball is not allowed to start another dribble. If A1 had not previously dribbled the ball, and while airborne fumbled and recovered the ball, he is permitted to start a dribble.


Go ahead and continue not to reward bad offense or penalize good defense, just realize you are doing so based on your personal feelings and opinions and have no rules backing whatsoever.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by johnny d

A fumble may be legally recovered by any player

There is (at least) one exception to that, I think.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by deecee

Before you try and get into a match of wits I'll spell it out for you since your rule book is probably misplaced

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when teh ball touches a player's own backboard.

1-15-3: The dribble begins by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

Now, stay with me, because it may go over your head. How can a player with control go to make a pass (an intentional act) then intentionally change his mind, and you call that a FUMBLE?????

A fumble is when a player goes to pick up his dribble cut FUMBLES gathering the ball. You can't have control of the ball with both hands go to pass, change your mind and then suddenly FUMBLE. It's throwing the ball to the floor and the start of a dribble.

Let's assume that somebody doesn't call this a double dribble, which I agree it is. Could the "secondary" call (if you miss the double dribble) be a travel? You essentially ended up passing to yourself after you lost your dribble. I think that is the call that the crowd, coaches, and players would understand and not argue with.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

Let's assume that somebody doesn't call this a double dribble, which I agree it is. Could the "secondary" call (if you miss the double dribble) be a travel? You essentially ended up passing to yourself after you lost your dribble. I think that is the call that the crowd, coaches, and players would understand and not argue with.

SD, I know you said you're a state tournament official in the thread where you said you have somehow never given a technical foul to a coach (in a career that spans 10+ years, I believe) ... and now you say THIS?!

Are you pulling our leg or are you really pretending to be a legitimate official?

"Passing to yourself" = not possible; "fanboy" talk, as others on here would say
"The call that the crowd, coaches, players would understand and not argue with" = since when has that EVER mattered?! Nothing matters less, in fact.

These are some troubling theories, whether you're just starting out or do in fact have the experience, errr, years you claim to possess.