I also cannot think straight

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

How about poor officiating? Seems that we should take away your next game check so as not to improperly reward that.

That is my way of telling you that you are incorrect on this point.

Anytime that the ball unintentionally slips out of a player's grasp, it is a fumble. The art of officiating is discerning if the action was unintentional or done deliberately. Officials are paid to make those judgment calls. What you have stated (that you are just going to penalize the player for bad offense) is lazy and a failure to fulfill one of the basic tenets of officiating--making an honest assessment of the game action.

I have to agree with this after reading all of the posts. This was mostly like an unintentional release of the ball. Probably not a double dribble if it was a classic muff. I wasn't there to see it.

I think if the ball moves far enough away that steps are taken, a travel call is the way to go.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

Let's assume that somebody doesn't call this a double dribble, which I agree it is. Could the "secondary" call (if you miss the double dribble) be a travel? You essentially ended up passing to yourself after you lost your dribble. I think that is the call that the crowd, coaches, and players would understand and not argue with.

Originally Posted by SD Referee

I have to agree with this after reading all of the posts. This was mostly like an unintentional release of the ball. Probably not a double dribble if it was a classic muff. I wasn't there to see it.

I think if the ball moves far enough away that steps are taken, a travel call is the way to go.

One thing it's absolutely not is travelling. Yes, you won't get an argument but that's because most people haven't taken time to understand the rules on dribbling and travelling.

If it's not a fumble, then he has pushed the ball to the floor and, if he is the next player to touch the ball, it is a dribble. You cannot travel while dribbling.

The only difference between a bounce pass and a dribble is who touches the ball next.

So he has either fumbled the ball and legally recovered it or he has committed an illegal dribble violation. Which it is depends on whether you judge the release of the ball to be intentional or not.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

I have to agree with this after reading all of the posts. This was mostly like an unintentional release of the ball. Probably not a double dribble if it was a classic muff. I wasn't there to see it.

I think if the ball moves far enough away that steps are taken, a travel call is the way to go.

Totally incorrect. You can't travel if you don't have possession of the ball.

[deecee]

Finally heard back from my rules interpreter.

This sounds like a judgement call. If you feel that A1 was in the act of passing the ball and then tried to hold up but releases the pass anyway, I would say it is a violation if A1 was the first to touch the ball. If you feel A1 legitimately fumbled the ball without attempting to pass it, then it could be argued that A1 could be the first to pick up the ball. I think if A1 started any kind of passing motion and then tried to bring it back and lost the ball in the process, I would call it a pass and at that point and A1 could not be the first to pick up the ball.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by deecee

Finally heard back from my rules interpreter.

This sounds like a judgement call. If you feel that A1 was in the act of passing the ball and then tried to hold up but releases the pass anyway, I would say it is a violation if A1 was the first to touch the ball. If you feel A1 legitimately fumbled the ball without attempting to pass it, then it could be argued that A1 could be the first to pick up the ball. I think if A1 started any kind of passing motion and then tried to bring it back and lost the ball in the process, I would call it a pass and at that point and A1 could not be the first to pick up the ball.

What rules interpreter? An association can have a rules interpreter who has less knowledge than a first year official.

Is this your wording after speaking with a rules interpreter or their exact words?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Dad

What rules interpreter? An association can have a rules interpreter who has less knowledge than a first year official.

Is this your wording after speaking with a rules interpreter or their exact words?

cut and paste from the email. Mind you this is also how at a college camp several years ago this was explained. Happened in a game I had, my partner didn't blow the whistle. Evaluator said something along the line of if he was trying to pass and then changed his mind but the ball still came out it's part of the pass and should have been a violation. No one gave much thought or conversation to it much after as it seemed pretty common sense.

The evaluator was a NCAA tourney official so I took his word for it, unless someone above him, or my assignor, rules interpreter, someone with more experience tells me otherwise.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by deecee

cut and paste from the email. Mind you this is also how at a college camp several years ago this was explained. Happened in a game I had, my partner didn't blow the whistle. Evaluator said something along the line of if he was trying to pass and then changed his mind but the ball still came out it's part of the pass and should have been a violation. No one gave much thought or conversation to it much after as it seemed pretty common sense.

The evaluator was a NCAA tourney official so I took his word for it, unless someone above him, or my assignor, rules interpreter, someone with more experience tells me otherwise.

Thank you.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

The evaluator was a NCAA tourney official so I took his word for it, unless someone above him, or my assignor, rules interpreter, someone with more experience tells me otherwise.

We see such officials blow calls/rules all the time. He was incorrect.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by deecee

... Evaluator said something along the line of if he was trying to pass and then changed his mind but the ball still came out it's part of the pass ... No one gave much thought or conversation to it much after as it seemed pretty common sense.

This thread has basically morphed into discussing the NFL's infamous "Tuck Rule."

(Edit: Sorry, BNR, didn't see that you beat me to it on Page 2 )

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by deecee

cut and paste from the email. Mind you this is also how at a college camp several years ago this was explained. Happened in a game I had, my partner didn't blow the whistle. Evaluator said something along the line of if he was trying to pass and then changed his mind but the ball still came out it's part of the pass and should have been a violation. No one gave much thought or conversation to it much after as it seemed pretty common sense.

The evaluator was a NCAA tourney official so I took his word for it, unless someone above him, or my assignor, rules interpreter, someone with more experience tells me otherwise.

BS and here's why.

A1 ends a dribble and is holding the ball. He holds it with two hands over and behind his head while looking to pass to a teammate. As he attempts to throw the ball forward it slips out of his hands and falls to the floor behind him.

According to Mr. College Guy Evaluator, A1 cannot recover the ball.
I would say that about 95% of the forum members would disagree.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by deecee

cut and paste from the email. Mind you this is also how at a college camp several years ago this was explained. Happened in a game I had, my partner didn't blow the whistle. Evaluator said something along the line of if he was trying to pass and then changed his mind but the ball still came out it's part of the pass and should have been a violation. No one gave much thought or conversation to it much after as it seemed pretty common sense.

The evaluator was a NCAA tourney official so I took his word for it, unless someone above him, or my assignor, rules interpreter, someone with more experience tells me otherwise.

FWIW, with about 1:25 remaining in the Kentucky-Louisville game today, a player from Kentucky had the ball around foul-line extended. He was attempting to throw a one hand pass back out to the point guard when the ball slipped out of his hand. The ball went up in the air toward the point guard. The player took a couple of quick steps and recovered the ball before it hit the floor. The covering official evidently ruled this to be a fumble so no violation needed to be called. Perhaps someone can post the video.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by deecee

Finally heard back from my rules interpreter.

If you feel A1 legitimately fumbled the ball without attempting to pass it, then it could be argued that A1 could be the first to pick up the ball. I think if A1 started any kind of passing motion and then tried to bring it back and lost the ball in the process, I would call it a pass and at that point and A1 could not be the first to pick up the ball.

Deecee, I disagree with your interpreter. If the player legitimately fumbled the ball..... it is a fumble. Doesnt matter if he was originally in a passing motion. we will agree to disagree on this one. take care.