I also cannot think straight

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Apparently not.


When a player does not intended to release the ball but it comes out anyway, that is defined as a fumble. So, what is described in the OP is a fumble, by rule.

The situation you referred to above on receiving a pass is defined as a "muff".

A dribble, as you want to call it, is a deliberate action. Not accidental.

I respectfully disagree. The player began the motion to make a pass, then changes his or her mind and the ball comes out. I am sticking with the original intent of the player that it was a pass attempt. Not my problem that the kid couldn't hold on to the ball. I'm not going to penalize good defense and reward sloppy offense.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

I respectfully disagree. The player began the motion to make a pass, then changes his or her mind and the ball comes out. I am sticking with the original intent of the player that it was a pass attempt. Not my problem that the kid couldn't hold on to the ball. I'm not going to penalize good defense and reward sloppy offense.

Tuck rule?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Tuck rule?

Who knows. I am going to run this by our rules interpreter and get his feedback.

[letemplay]

Originally Posted by deecee

I'm not going to penalize good defense and reward sloppy offense.

Where is this in rule book? I don't think you should use this as a base for your defense. You should stick to your judgement that it was a pass (and thus a violation) while acknowledging the OP, and others in that sitch, COULD have seen a fumble.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Where is this in rule book? I don't think you should use this as a base for your defense. You should stick to your judgement that it was a pass (and thus a violation) while acknowledging the OP, and others in that sitch, COULD have seen a fumble.

Yep, it's judgment. There is nothing in the rule book that shows either side is wrong.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Where is this in rule book? I don't think you should use this as a base for your defense. You should stick to your judgement that it was a pass (and thus a violation) while acknowledging the OP, and others in that sitch, COULD have seen a fumble.

The judgment in the play is deciding on what it is you are seeing. Did the ball SLIP out of his hands when the other player went back door or did the player just "let up" on the pass? (The ball didnt slip, bobble etc.) If you determine that the ball slipped out of his hands judgment is over. The rule (fumble definition) says it is a fumble.

Deecee stated earlier that if a player changes his mind on the pass, tries to hold it, but it still "pops out" he is going with the original intent of the player. "Pops out" here means "slips" to me. Original intent can be helpful in determining what the player was doing but, if the ball slips out, it is a fumble. The OP also said it was a fumble.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BigCat

The judgment in the play is deciding on what it is you are seeing. Did the ball SLIP out of his hands when the other player went back door or did the player just "let up" on the pass? (The ball didnt slip, bobble etc.) If you determine that the ball slipped out of his hands judgment is over. The rule (fumble definition) says it is a fumble.

....

If you determine the ball slipped out of his hands, you've judged it a fumble. Someone else may judge those same actions were a pass.

[MD Longhorn]

Insisting that it's impossible to begin a pass, change one's mind, and then fumble the ball - thus ruling anything remotely like the OP an illegal dribble - is the call of least resistance. It will keep coaches, fans, players off your back... but it won't impress your supervisors should they see this or hear of it.

You decide what kind of official you'd rather be.

I would think that even after 15 years, one can still learn. The day I know everything in any sport is the day I should hang 'em up.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If you determine the ball slipped out of his hands, you've judged it a fumble. Someone else may judge those same actions were a pass.

Agree completely. The judgment is deciding if it slipped or not. That was the first thing I mentioned in that post. Once you decide it slipped, judgment is over. it is a fumble. Again, Deecee seem to acknowledge that the ball slipped, "pop out" i think he used, but still said it was a pass. That is where the issue is.