I also cannot think straight

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

After 15 years I think I know what a fumble is.

Apparently not.

Originally Posted by deecee

In this instance with what was described I would not call this a fumble. Changing your mind on a pass and deciding to try and hold on the ball but the ball still pops out is a pass, albeit crappy one, in my book. I'm not rewarding bad offense or penalizing good defense here.

When a player does not intended to release the ball but it comes out anyway, that is defined as a fumble. So, what is described in the OP is a fumble, by rule.

The situation you referred to above on receiving a pass is defined as a "muff".

A dribble, as you want to call it, is a deliberate action. Not accidental.

[MechanicGuy]

I would have a hard time calling a play like this anything other than a violation. If the ball went far enough away that he had to take several steps to retrieve it, he more than likely voluntarily released the pass.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy

I would have a hard time calling a play like this anything other than a violation. If the ball went far enough away that he had to take several steps to retrieve it, he more than likely voluntarily released the pass.

That implies that you're more willing to call what everyone in the gym thinks should be called than to defend a no-call with confident knowledge of Rule 4. This is not good officiating form.

If you judge pass right away, go ahead and call ID in this situation. If you're not sure, to say that you would call a violation anyway based on the fact that it was "more than likely" a pass is guessing. Guessing on calls will not separate you. Ever.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The situation you referred to above on receiving a pass is defined as a "muff".

While muff actually has multiple definitions the word doesn't actually appear in the books, does it?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

... muff ... the word doesn't actually appear in the books, does it?

4.15.1 SITUATION B: A1’s throw-in pass is beyond A2. (a) A2 reaches out and
slaps the ball toward A’s basket; or (b) A2 muffs the pass. In both situations. A2
then gains control and dribbles to the basket and scores. RULING: No violation
in either (a) or (b).

4.44 SITUATION A: A1 attempts to catch the ball while running rapidly. A1
muffs the ball, but succeeds in securing it before it strikes the floor. A1 then
begins a dribble, taking several steps between the time the ball was first touched
until it was caught. RULING: There has been no violation provided A1, after catching
the ball, released the ball to start the dribble before the pivot foot was lifted
from the floor. (4-15)

9.1.1 SITUATION: A1, at the free-throw line to attempt a free throw: (a) muffs
the pass from the official and it rolls forward; or (b) while performing his/her
habitual dribbles prior to the release, accidentally allows the ball to deflect off
his/her foot into the lane. RULING: In (a), the official should sound the whistle to
prevent any violations and then start the free throw procedure again. No freethrow
violation should be called in this situation. In (b), a free-throw violation
shall be called on A1. (9-1-3a, e)

9.2.1 SITUATION B: A1, out of bounds for a designated spot throw-in: (a)
muffs the pass from the official and it rolls forward; or (b) after receiving the ball
from the official, fumbles the ball and leaves the designated spot to retrieve the
fumble. RULING: In (a), the official should sound the whistle to prevent any violations
and then start the throw-in procedure again. No throw-in violation should
be called in this situation. In (b), a throw-in violation shall be called on A1 for
leaving the designated spot.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Apparently not.


When a player does not intended to release the ball but it comes out anyway, that is defined as a fumble. So, what is described in the OP is a fumble, by rule.

The situation you referred to above on receiving a pass is defined as a "muff".

A dribble, as you want to call it, is a deliberate action. Not accidental.

I respectfully disagree. The player began the motion to make a pass, then changes his or her mind and the ball comes out. I am sticking with the original intent of the player that it was a pass attempt. Not my problem that the kid couldn't hold on to the ball. I'm not going to penalize good defense and reward sloppy offense.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

I respectfully disagree. The player began the motion to make a pass, then changes his or her mind and the ball comes out. I am sticking with the original intent of the player that it was a pass attempt. Not my problem that the kid couldn't hold on to the ball. I'm not going to penalize good defense and reward sloppy offense.

Tuck rule?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Tuck rule?

Who knows. I am going to run this by our rules interpreter and get his feedback.

[letemplay]

Originally Posted by deecee

I'm not going to penalize good defense and reward sloppy offense.

Where is this in rule book? I don't think you should use this as a base for your defense. You should stick to your judgement that it was a pass (and thus a violation) while acknowledging the OP, and others in that sitch, COULD have seen a fumble.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Where is this in rule book? I don't think you should use this as a base for your defense. You should stick to your judgement that it was a pass (and thus a violation) while acknowledging the OP, and others in that sitch, COULD have seen a fumble.

Yep, it's judgment. There is nothing in the rule book that shows either side is wrong.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Where is this in rule book? I don't think you should use this as a base for your defense. You should stick to your judgement that it was a pass (and thus a violation) while acknowledging the OP, and others in that sitch, COULD have seen a fumble.

The judgment in the play is deciding on what it is you are seeing. Did the ball SLIP out of his hands when the other player went back door or did the player just "let up" on the pass? (The ball didnt slip, bobble etc.) If you determine that the ball slipped out of his hands judgment is over. The rule (fumble definition) says it is a fumble.

Deecee stated earlier that if a player changes his mind on the pass, tries to hold it, but it still "pops out" he is going with the original intent of the player. "Pops out" here means "slips" to me. Original intent can be helpful in determining what the player was doing but, if the ball slips out, it is a fumble. The OP also said it was a fumble.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BigCat

The judgment in the play is deciding on what it is you are seeing. Did the ball SLIP out of his hands when the other player went back door or did the player just "let up" on the pass? (The ball didnt slip, bobble etc.) If you determine that the ball slipped out of his hands judgment is over. The rule (fumble definition) says it is a fumble.

....

If you determine the ball slipped out of his hands, you've judged it a fumble. Someone else may judge those same actions were a pass.

[MD Longhorn]

Insisting that it's impossible to begin a pass, change one's mind, and then fumble the ball - thus ruling anything remotely like the OP an illegal dribble - is the call of least resistance. It will keep coaches, fans, players off your back... but it won't impress your supervisors should they see this or hear of it.

You decide what kind of official you'd rather be.

I would think that even after 15 years, one can still learn. The day I know everything in any sport is the day I should hang 'em up.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If you determine the ball slipped out of his hands, you've judged it a fumble. Someone else may judge those same actions were a pass.

Agree completely. The judgment is deciding if it slipped or not. That was the first thing I mentioned in that post. Once you decide it slipped, judgment is over. it is a fumble. Again, Deecee seem to acknowledge that the ball slipped, "pop out" i think he used, but still said it was a pass. That is where the issue is.