I also cannot think straight

[deecee]

Originally Posted by kycat1

I'm confused on the "fumble rule" and would love a ruling as I cannot find anything in the HS rule book except the definition and this does not help interpret certain plays.
Play - A1 finishes his dribble, looks to throw the ball to another player but stops his throw as the other player breaks the other way and it fumbles out of A1's hands onto the floor. A1 takes 2 or 3 steps and pick up the all. He does not dribble again, he just picks it up. What is the ruling?

There is nothing in the case book now but I remember from a past case play that if the ref deemed it to be truly a fumble (and not a pass that he goes and gets because the other player broke the other way), he or she may go pick it up because you cannot walk or double dribble when you have no player control.

What is the ruling?

Illegal dribble. The throw started a dribble so the player cannot be the first to touch. you can fumble-dribble-fumble but you cannot dribble-fumble-dribble.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by deecee

Illegal dribble. The throw started a dribble so the player cannot be the first to touch. you can fumble-dribble-fumble but you cannot dribble-fumble-dribble.

The OP said he made the judgment that this was a fumble and not a pass. So I don't believe this is an illegal dribble.

Agree you cannot dribble-fumble-dribble. But what was described was dribble-fumble-retrieve. That's legal.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

The OP said he made the judgment that this was a fumble and not a pass. So I don't believe this is an illegal dribble.

Agree you cannot dribble-fumble-dribble. But what was described was dribble-fumble-retrieve. That's legal.

You cannot just "fumble" a pass then be the first to touch it. There are allowances for fumbling a ball that is thrown to you and then you pick it up and start a dribble, fumbling a dribble off your foot and recovering the dribble (interrupted dribble), but I don't think you can change your mind on a pass after you end your dribble, let the ball bounce then pick it up without committing a "double" dribble.

The ball hitting the ground was start of a second dribble if touched by the same offensive player. IF there are rule/case plays that prove I'm wrong please cite.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by deecee

IF there are rule/case plays that prove I'm wrong please cite.

I can't because this is a HTBT kind of play, or we'd at least need to see video to talk about the official's judgment.

I could certainly see a player start a pass, realize his man isn't there, then reach out with the non-throwing hand to stop the throwing motion and secure the ball. And then fumble.

Tiger Woods has been known to check a golf swing mid-stroke. Tennis players sometimes stop a serve post-toss and start over. What's to say a point guard with good reflexes also couldn't stop a passing motion mid-throw?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I can't because this is a HTBT kind of play, or we'd at least need to see video to talk about the official's judgment.

I could certainly see a player start a pass, realize his man isn't there, then reach out with the non-throwing hand to stop the throwing motion and secure the ball. And then fumble.

Tiger Woods has been known to check a golf swing mid-stroke. Tennis players sometimes stop a serve post-toss and start over. What's to say a point guard with good reflexes also couldn't stop a passing motion mid-throw?

as long as the ball doesnt leave his hand and hit the floor we are all good.

[billyu2]

The OP says the ball was "fumbled" out of his hand. If we are using the RB definition, a fumble is the accidental loss of control so the player may recover without penalty.

[OKREF]

Was the loss of the ball a fumble or a pass? If it's a pass, then it's a violation, if it's a fumble they can retrieve the fumble.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by deecee

Illegal dribble. The throw started a dribble so the player cannot be the first to touch. you can fumble-dribble-fumble but you cannot dribble-fumble-dribble.

Please look up the definition of dribble and then compare it to what the OP actually says before you spew this nonsense.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Please look up the definition of dribble and then compare it to what the OP actually says before you spew this nonsense.

Before you try and get into a match of wits I'll spell it out for you since your rule book is probably misplaced

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when teh ball touches a player's own backboard.

1-15-3: The dribble begins by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

Now, stay with me, because it may go over your head. How can a player with control go to make a pass (an intentional act) then intentionally change his mind, and you call that a FUMBLE?????

A fumble is when a player goes to pick up his dribble cut FUMBLES gathering the ball. You can't have control of the ball with both hands go to pass, change your mind and then suddenly FUMBLE. It's throwing the ball to the floor and the start of a dribble.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by deecee

Before you try and get into a match of wits I'll spell it out for you since your rule book is probably misplaced

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when teh ball touches a player's own backboard.

1-15-3: The dribble begins by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

Now, stay with me, because it may go over your head. How can a player with control go to make a pass (an intentional act) then intentionally change his mind, and you call that a FUMBLE?????

A fumble is when a player goes to pick up his dribble cut FUMBLES gathering the ball. You can't have control of the ball with both hands go to pass, change your mind and then suddenly FUMBLE. It's throwing the ball to the floor and the start of a dribble.

I was about to defend Deecee's post, but it was done before I could hit reply.

If you're going to claim nonsense at someone try to at least back it up.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by deecee

Before you try and get into a match of wits I'll spell it out for you since your rule book is probably misplaced

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when teh ball touches a player's own backboard.

1-15-3: The dribble begins by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

Now, stay with me, because it may go over your head. How can a player with control go to make a pass (an intentional act) then intentionally change his mind, and you call that a FUMBLE?????

A fumble is when a player goes to pick up his dribble cut FUMBLES gathering the ball. You can't have control of the ball with both hands go to pass, change your mind and then suddenly FUMBLE. It's throwing the ball to the floor and the start of a dribble.

A fumble is the ACCIDENTAl loss of player control when ball unintentionally drops or slips from player's grasp. It is not limited to ending a dribble. In this play if the player starts to pass it to A1 but changes his mine and tries to hold on but ball "drops or slips" unintentionally, it is a fumble. On the other hand, if the player changes his mind and just throws the pass with not much on it, that would be a dribble if he went and got it. The OP said fumble. That word means ball slips. Fumble is a.....fumble. I'd really have to see the play. Fumbles are not limited to ending a dribble. Thx

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BigCat

A fumble is the ACCIDENTAl loss of player control when ball unintentionally drops or slips from player's grasp. It is not limited to ending a dribble. In this play if the player starts to pass it to A1 but changes his mine and tries to hold on but ball "drops or slips" unintentionally, it is a fumble. On the other hand, if the player changes his mind and just throws the pass with not much on it, that would be a dribble if he went and got it. The OP said fumble. That word means ball slips. Fumble is a.....fumble. I'd really have to see the play. Fumbles are not limited to ending a dribble. Thx

After 15 years I think I know what a fumble is. In this instance with what was described I would not call this a fumble. Changing your mind on a pass and deciding to try and hold on the ball but the ball still pops out is a pass, albeit crappy one, in my book. I'm not rewarding bad offense or penalizing good defense here.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by deecee

After 15 years I think I know what a fumble is. In this instance with what was described I would not call this a fumble. Changing your mind on a pass and deciding to try and hold on the ball but the ball still pops out is a pass, albeit crappy one, in my book. I'm not rewarding bad offense or penalizing good defense here.

If you change your mind and try to hold on but ball slips out that is a fumble. If your a coach it's a crap pass by the kid. If your a referee it's a fumble. That's the definition in the book. Ball slips fumble.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by deecee

After 15 years I think I know what a fumble is. In this instance with what was described I would not call this a fumble. Changing your mind on a pass and deciding to try and hold on the ball but the ball still pops out is a pass, albeit crappy one, in my book. I'm not rewarding bad offense or penalizing good defense here.

You are not answering the OP.

In the OP, it was judged (however crappily) to be a fumble. You are saying that it should almost never be judged to be so.

Thus, the disconnect in the thread.

You're both right.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You are not answering the OP.

In the OP, it was judged (however crappily) to be a fumble. You are saying that it should almost never be judged to be so.

Thus, the disconnect in the thread.

You're both right.

I don't like ties. Do you agree that if the ball slips out of my hands, it is a fumble?