Slide = Not travelling

[McMac]

So had a MS game the other night. Partner called a travel on a player who slid about 5 feet after gaining possession of a loose ball on the floor. (He went to the floor first, then gained possession while still sliding.) My partner called a travel before he had even stopped sliding. I thought about saying something to him, but I did not. I was the T table side. I was near the coach of the team called for the travel. He and most of the gym was not happy about the call.

I had a feeling I was right about the "momentum" rule. (Just double checked my rule/case book) A player can recover the ball on the floor and allow his momentum to expire and not be called for a travel, but if he makes a second motion that is not a part of the initial slide, then it is a travel. (Sorry if the wording confuses some!)

What would you have done in this situation? I am one of the younger officials in my area but have been reffing for a few years now and this official is older than me, first time working with him, so I did not know how he would take me asking about the call.

Correct me if I am misinterpreting something here also.

[Adam]

I would have asked him later what he saw. Maybe, he saw something different.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by McMac

What would you have done in this situation? I am one of the younger officials in my area but have been reffing for a few years now and this official is older than me, first time working with him, so I did not know how he would take me asking about the call.

Correct me if I am misinterpreting something here also.

The only thing I would have done is discussed in at halftime or after the game and then bring out the rulebook to verify. Other than that, during the game would have probably been the wrong time to debate it as you never know what his exact reasoning might have been to make that call.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

During the game would have probably been the wrong time to debate it as you never know what his exact reasoning might have been to make that call.

While this may be true 95% of the time, it really depends on the level of the game, and the degree of rapport between partners.

Yesterday. Catholic middle school junior varsity game. From the lead position, I see, what I believe, is a player attempting a shot from the opposite block, having the ball blocked before the ball leaving his hand, with me calling a held ball. I'm the closer official, but my partner, from the trail position, takes a couple of steps toward me and says quietly, "Did you get a good look at that?". I reply that I did, and we play on.

Next timeout, he comes over to me and we discuss the play. Although I was the closer official, I had the shooter, and his defender, between me and the ball. My partner was farther away, but he got a great look at the ball, and he saw it barely leave the shooter's hand, thus, just a blocked ball, not a held ball. We talked about how we could have fixed it, if we wanted to, and moved on.

I've worked dozens of games, both high school, and Catholic middle school, with this partner. He's a state high school tournament official. I value his opinion, and I know that he wasn't trying to show me up, or take over the game, he just wanted to make this a learning experience for both of us. I've got no problem with what he did.

[Johnny Ringo]

Player dives for loose ball, gathers loose ball and momentum allos him to slide a few feet and then into a complete roll ... all in one motion. He comes to rest on his back with the ball secured.

You have anything?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

Player dives for loose ball, gathers loose ball and momentum allows him to slide a few feet and then into a complete roll ... all in one motion. He comes to rest on his back with the ball secured.

You have anything?

Just a thought. Momentum does not allow one to do anything. Momentum takes you there whether you like it or not.

[Johnny Ringo]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Just a thought. Momentum does not allow one to do anything. Momentum takes you there whether you like it or not.

Could a slide and a roll both be part of momentum? I would say yes. And no violation. Am I wrong? I know its a tough call, but believe I have seen it before.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While this may be true 95% of the time, it really depends on the level of the game, and the degree of rapport between partners.

The reason I would not do this, is I do not want to get into a big debate and cause a problem between me and my partner(s) over one judgment call. Now discussing this after the game or even halftime under the right circumstances I would have no problem doing. But I would not want to debate this and look like I am trying to influence his call. Coaches will take any little body language or conversation the wrong way. I have had coaches that even saw both officials signal a foul (not like a blarge) and assume that the other partner had something different. It is not all about the rapport you have or do not have, it is just do you want every call to be up for debate and a coach wanting you to change or give information. At least it is more acceptable on an out of bounds play, but we cannot have every travel or double dribble up for debate or we would never get through a game. Even guys I know very well can get upset when you question their judgment on simple traveling plays.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While this may be true 95% of the time, it really depends on the level of the game, and the degree of rapport between partners.

Yesterday. Catholic middle school junior varsity game. From the lead position, I see, what I believe, is a player attempting a shot from the opposite block, having the ball blocked before the ball leaving his hand, with me calling a held ball. I'm the closer official, but my partner, from the trail position, takes a couple of steps toward me and says quietly, "Did you get a good look at that?". I reply that I did, and we play on.

Next timeout, he comes over to me and we discuss the play. Although I was the closer official, I had the shooter, and his defender, between me and the ball. My partner was farther away, but he got a great look at the ball, and he saw it barely leave the shooter's hand, thus, just a blocked ball, not a held ball. We talked about how we could have fixed it, if we wanted to, and moved on.

I've worked dozens of games, both high school, and Catholic middle school, with this partner. He's a state high school tournament official. I value his opinion, and I know that he wasn't trying to show me up, or take over the game, he just wanted to make this a learning experience for both of us. I've got no problem with what he did.

So you had an inadvertent whistle after a try was released and there was no team control. Now let's see...what is the proper way to resume the game? POI part 3--> AP arrow. Or you could stick with your erroneous held ball call, which would result in using the AP arrow as well.
So it seems that once you incorrectly blew the whistle in this situation, you were stuck with the AP arrow.

[26 Year Gap]

This is one of those situations where you let your partner take the heat for an incorrect call. There is nothing you can do to better the situation by trying to explain a rule to him on a violation like that. You can talk to him in private about it at half or a point later on during the season, but you may not get a positive response. You now know that the call was incorrect, so use that knowldge to help you recognize similar plays in the future so that you do not repeat his mistake.

[bainsey]

FWIW, I had something similar today.

Loose ball, bodies flying to the ground. V-1 is on his back, has the ball, then goes to his knees. My partner calls the travel.

That's how he saw it. Meanwhile, I'm not entirely sure V-1 had control the ball, so I wouldn't have had a travel. I asked about it at halftime, and he told me what he saw. We even discussed the play with another batch of officials after the game, within our locker room confines.

Some of the finer veterans here could answer this better, but I'd guess it would be a rare occassion where you'd question that one on the floor.

[refiator]

You have to bring this up to him/her at some point. This is a non-violation that is called a violation by officials who need to know what the rule says.
Let them know that momentum cannot be called a travel. If they disagree, they will pay the price at some point.

[Rich]

Well, we had one of these today. Kid dives for a loose ball, corrals it mid-slide, and slides a good distance after. We had a foul shortly thereafter, so two of us ended up explaining the same thing to him. The coach told my partner he disagreed with him, but when I said the exact same thing when he asked, he said nothing.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by refiator

You have to bring this up to him/her at some point. This is a non-violation that is called a violation by officials who need to know what the rule says.
Let them know that momentum cannot be called a travel. If they disagree, they will pay the price at some point.

Absolutely not the proper path to take for a young official. Criticizing the calls of his older partners will not help him advance and could definitely hinder his progress. Leave the evaluating, instructing, and teaching to those in charge of such tasks in the area or association. Even the assignor could handle it.

All that he should do is focus on his own calls and being correct in what he whistles. Let his partners answer for their own calls.

Originally Posted by refiator

You have to bring this up to him/her at some point. This is a non-violation that is called a violation by officials who need to know what the rule says.
Let them know that momentum cannot be called a travel. If they disagree, they will pay the price at some point.

The dude is making a middle-school call in a middle-school game. They deserve each other. I can't think of many screw-ups in a middle school school game that would cause an official to "pay the price". If the dude was trying to move up he would have asked his partner after the game if he had anything.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Absolutely not the proper path to take for a young official. Criticizing the calls of his older partners will not help him advance and could definitely hinder his progress. Leave the evaluating, instructing, and teaching to those in charge of such tasks in the area or association. Even the assignor could handle it.

All that he should do is focus on his own calls and being correct in what he whistles. Let his partners answer for their own calls.

Agree.