So...is the term "extended arm bar" unclear?

[MechanicGuy]

I didn't think so. For over a year now, I though I knew what this meant, particularly as it applies to 10-6-12.

I've been taught at clinics and camps, and seen on NFHS slides at the master clinic, that this meant the defender placing their forearm on the offensive player...away from their own body.

Tonight, at out biweekly area meeting, the topic du jour was 10-6-12. The official presenting, or leading the discussion, is insisting that "extended" means the arm istelf is extended....as in at the elbow, into nearly a straight arm. He is explaining this as it relates to post play, and explicitly says that arm bars (as in forearm in the back of the offensive player, with the ball) are normal and legal.

I was stunned. This is a very good official, someone who also works college ball. I injected my thoughts, and the room was somehow split on the issue.

Am I nuts? Isn't the term extended arm bar plenty clear? As anyone else run into these issues within your area? Working with officials from other areas?

[just another ref]

Translation: I'm very hesitant to call this and I need to justify it somehow.

[Camron Rust]

He's making stuff up because he doesn't want to change and call it the way the NFHS wants it to be called. Being in a position of respect, people are going to believe him, unfortunately. The NFHS very clearly doesn't want defenders to be using their hands/arms to play on opponent with the ball. It is that simple.

[BigCat]

There is a picture in the nfhs handout stuff for this year i believe. an arm bar is the arm bent at the elbow, as we know. an extended arm bar means it is out away from the body. still bent etc. when the arm is straightened, it becomes a stiff arm. not an arm bar.......

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy

...a very good official, someone who also works college ball...

There might be the cause for valid concern on your part. This may be an accomplished official who is impressing an NCAA rule on a group of NFHS officials. Not an infrequent situation.
One local assigner here is a college referee who also does high school. But he makes great efforts to always maintain a healthy and accurate distinction between the two when speaking with officials who do either one or the other. He knows his audience and is careful not to intermix the two when differences in approved mechanics and rules exist.
I thought I overheard him saying the other day that NCAAM changed their rules to allow an extended armbar in the post. I might have heard him wrong. Can anybody here who also does NCAAM refute or verify this?

[APG]

Originally Posted by Freddy

I thought I overheard him saying the other day that NCAAM changed their rules to allow an extended armbar in the post. I might have heard him wrong. Can anybody here who also does NCAAM refute or verify this?

NCAA-M rules allow a defender to use an armbar in the post area, on a player with the ball while that player has his back or side to the basket.

[Kansas Ref]

I disdain college level refs giving clinics/offering advice to NF audiences. They frequently mix up mechanics and confuse NF level refs. Often they will say something like "...in high school ball we do this & that but in college ball we do that & this". Wish that they would let NF level refs be the sole presenters at seminars wherein NF refs are the primary audience or wherein NF type information is to be presented. I worked a NF game with a ref who would hold up two hands with open palms and fingers spread apart at me when I was giving the ball for a throw in after a substitution. I presumed that was his way of telling me "OK, we now have 10 players in the game, go ahead and start throw-in." Later he told me that two hands up meant "stop/pause", I told him that his mechanic was confusing.

[jpgc99]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

I worked a NF game with a ref who would hold up two hands with open palms and fingers spread apart at me when I was giving the ball for a throw in after a substitution. I presumed that was his way of telling me "OK, we now have 10 players in the game, go ahead and start throw-in." Later he told me that two hands up meant "stop/pause", I told him that his mechanic was confusing.

Why would this confuse you? Wouldn't the context of the game situation help explain whether or not he was ready? If he was telling you "stop/pause" and you thought it meant he was ready for the throw-in to start, it seems there are other issues.

Besides, this has nothing to do with NCAA mechanics.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

I disdain college level refs giving clinics/offering advice to NF audiences. They frequently mix up mechanics and confuse NF level refs. Often they will say something like "...in high school ball we do this & that but in college ball we do that & this". Wish that they would let NF level refs be the sole presenters at seminars wherein NF refs are the primary audience or wherein NF type information is to be presented. I worked a NF game with a ref who would hold up two hands with open palms and fingers spread apart at me when I was giving the ball for a throw in after a substitution. I presumed that was his way of telling me "OK, we now have 10 players in the game, go ahead and start throw-in." Later he told me that two hands up meant "stop/pause", I told him that his mechanic was confusing.

I use that all the time -- and I only work HS basketball.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by Rich

I use that all the time -- and I only work HS basketball.

Inconsistent and/or incorrect mechanics (and uniforms) seems to be the hallmark of H.S. officiating across the nation, from everything I've observed, worked with and been told to do for the past 6 or 7 years I've been working at the varsity level. Difficult to say why, but the infusion of men's and women's college officials is definitely part of the reason.

At the end of the day, though, managing a good game is the recipe for personal success even though state level evaluators and assignors may "say" they don't agree and will knock poor mechanics despite a well managed game all day long.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

I worked a NF game with a ref who would hold up two hands with open palms and fingers spread apart at me when I was giving the ball for a throw in after a substitution. I presumed that was his way of telling me "OK, we now have 10 players in the game, go ahead and start throw-in." Later he told me that two hands up meant "stop/pause", I told him that his mechanic was confusing.

If 2 hands up means go ahead to you and is confusing then there isn't much to say is there. It's also used since it's 3 man and you want both to show both partners, "hey hold up"

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by deecee

If 2 hands up means go ahead to you and is confusing then there isn't much to say is there. It's also used since it's 3 man and you want both to show both partners, "hey hold up"

Two hands up, palms facing a partner typically means "I've counted 10 on the court." where I'm from.

A single raised arm with open palm is the stop or "do not proceed yet" sign.

A point or thumbs up is the "good to go" sign.

Those are all things I see in my area from officials at every level....H.S. NAIA and NCAA.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

Two hands up, palms facing a partner typically means "I've counted 10 on the court." where I'm from.

A single raised arm with open palm is the stop or "do not proceed yet" sign.

A point or thumbs up is the "good to go" sign.

Those are all things I see in my area from officials at every level....H.S. NAIA and NCAA.

You have an, "I've counted 10 signal"? I thought Hand/hands up means hold on and hands down means lets play.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

Two hands up, palms facing a partner typically means "I've counted 10 on the court." where I'm from.

A single raised arm with open palm is the stop or "do not proceed yet" sign.

A point or thumbs up is the "good to go" sign.

Those are all things I see in my area from officials at every level....H.S. NAIA and NCAA.

A thumbs up from me means there's 10....cause we're not "good to go" if there are 9 or 11 on the floor.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by deecee

You have an, "I've counted 10 signal"? I thought Hand/hands up means hold on and hands down means lets play.

That's how I interpret it. And, that is what most guys I know that use it are trying to communicate.