Ball-handlers / Freedom of Movement

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not say there was not a rule for hand-checking previously to the addition of Article 12.

But two hands on the ball handler was never clearly spelled out in the rules until they added Article. Those all were added how we call the game or got rid of the wiggle room of interpretation. Interpretations are different than hard-fast rules.



POEs are the worst ways to get an interpretation applied when it already does not support a rule.



This was more than what a clinician told you, there was not a specific rule to tell us what should be called. I had called hand-checking or arm bars in the game in the 90s and only was told how that was not a foul. Now when I call those specific fouls and do not have to consider RSBQ, I have a rule that I can clearly reference.

It was more than what a clinician told us to do at a camp, it was hard call something that did not have a clear rule.

Supervisors say all the time and have been saying for a very long time, "I can defend a judgment, I cannot defend not knowing the rules." Well we have rules that stops a lot of that activity and we have support to call it that way. Again, never did I ever call "two hands" on a dribbler a foul automatically like I do now. The rule makes that very clear what to do just like I have rules on verticality when a coach asks for a foul (like he did last night) and why I called a PC foul when a player had LGP. No interpretation, a rule.

Peace

I believe the rule support has always been there and that you were right in the 90s to call hand-checking a foul. The rule said a player SHALL not place a hand…
The people saying it was not a foul didn't have rule support imo. I think those folks muddied the waters. They were of the "let em play" mindset and called certain things "game interruptors."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I believe the rule support has always been there and that you were right in the 90s to call hand-checking a foul. The rule said a player SHALL not place a hand…
The people saying it was not a foul didn't have rule support imo. I think those folks muddied the waters. They were of the "let em play" mindset and called certain things "game interruptors."

Again, I never said anything about not being able to call a hand-checking foul before. The signal for hand-checking has been around for probably a little over 10 years now and you could call that a foul when you deemed it to be a foul. But the rule was never this specific or was interpreted the way it is now.

Do not make the discussion more complicated than it already is.

Peace

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by goodros_nemesis

During the first year, I overheard a lot of coaches saying, "Do it until you get called, then stop. If they don't call it, don't stop." Bugs me when the coach essentially tells his players to cheat unless they get caught.

I think you're being hopelessly naïve. Referees call the game differently. Some referees call certain things fouls, and others don't. Players who self police are putting themselves at a disadvantage -- and many young players over self police because they are worried about getting fouls.

Smart players (1) will do whatever today's referee permits and (2) will adjust to what today's referee does not. Those who do not do the first get pushed around, and those who do not do the second collect a lot of fouls.

Way back when in my high school days, my league apparently had different referee pools for San Francisco and for down the peninsula to San Jose. The SF referees were more "let them play" and the San Jose group called a lot more touch fouls. If I played in SF the way I had to play in SJ, I'd completely get my butt kicked. The game is about adjusting -- which is what, as a coach, I constantly taught: stop complaining about the call that has been made (or not made) all game -- adapt to the referee and do what is permitted today and don't do what isn't.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by goodros_nemesis

During the first year, I overheard a lot of coaches saying, "Do it until you get called, then stop. If they don't call it, don't stop." Bugs me when the coach essentially tells his players to cheat unless they get caught.

How is it cheating? They aren't doing it secretly, or trying to clandestinely circumvent a rule. They are testing the judgment of the officials. It's our job to correct it with our whistles.

[Mregor]

Originally Posted by Rich

So, how are things going with the rules around freedom of movement for ball handlers?

We had a boys varsity team yesterday who routinely commits 30+ fouls a game. And yesterday might have been the worst we've seen - they ended up with 39 fouls (the other team had 23). 68 free throws in the game. 4 of their players fouled out.

It's almost like they hope the officials will back down after a while rather than adjust their style of play. Maybe some do.

Gotta say, it wasn't the most fun I've ever had officiating.

Similar here. Started game 5 mins early so I thought I'd be home early. Visitor had 7 kids foul out. Finished with 4. I don't ever recall a varsity game where I had 4 finish. Coach whined a lot. I asked him which fouls was not really a foul. Silence. No adjustment. All our fault. Got him at home in Jan too.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by Mregor

Similar here. Started game 5 mins early so I thought I'd be home early. Visitor had 7 kids foul out. Finished with 4. I don't ever recall a varsity game where I had 4 finish. Coach whined a lot. I asked him which fouls was not really a foul. Silence. No adjustment. All our fault. Got him at home in Jan too.

At least you'll get to see if he's made any adjustments during the month he's had to prepare to see you again.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mregor

Visitor had 7 kids foul out. Finished with 4. I don't ever recall a varsity game where I had 4 finish.

I never worked a varsity game even remotely similar. I never observed a varsity game even remotely similar.

Karma? What did you do to deserve this? It must have been something real bad.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Mregor

Similar here. Started game 5 mins early so I thought I'd be home early. Visitor had 7 kids foul out. Finished with 4. I don't ever recall a varsity game where I had 4 finish. Coach whined a lot. I asked him which fouls was not really a foul. Silence. No adjustment. All our fault. Got him at home in Jan too.

Still working 2 in Arizona?

100% 3-person this year. Finally.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

Still working 2 in Arizona?

100% 3-person this year. Finally.

I have gone years without working a single 2 person game in Illinois and that has been the case for like 18 years.

Peace