Ball-handlers / Freedom of Movement

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I never saw what is listed in 10-6-12 as a rule. They only created that rule after the NCAA put the wording into their rule of 10-1-4. These were not rules when I started and people would not call these unless they saw and advantage. I had actually heard of RSBQ long before these were even mentioned. Did I probably call the game similarly? Sure did, but I never had a specific reference to use in the explanation. I also went to camps where we would get in trouble for calling things that did not fit the philosophy. When these rules came into place, we had support under the rules.

To say those were always rules is not exactly correct.

Peace

Thanks for making my point.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Thanks for making my point.

Yup.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There was never a rule on hand-checking except for what was stated the last 2 years or so.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Thanks for making my point.

Three years old (2011-12):

10-6 : CONTACT
ART. 1 A player shall not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress
of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s), or by
bending his/her body into other than a normal position; nor use any rough tactics.
ART. 2 A player shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless
such contact is only with the opponent’s hand while it is on the ball and is
incidental to an attempt to play the ball.
ART. 3 A player shall not use his/her hands on an opponent in any way that
inhibits the freedom of movement of the opponent or acts as an aid to a player in
starting or stopping.
ART. 4 A player shall not extend the arm(s) fully or partially other than
vertically so that freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact
with the arms occurs. A player may hold his/her hand(s) and arm(s) in front of
his/her own face or body for protection and to absorb force from an imminent
charge by an opponent.

4-24: ART. 5 It is not legal to use hands on an opponent which in any way inhibits
the freedom of movement of the opponent or acts as an aid to a player in starting
or stopping.
ART. 6 It is not legal to extend the arms fully or partially in a position other
than vertical so that the freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when
contact with the arms occurs. The extension of the elbows when the hands are
on the hips or when the hands are held near the chest or when the arms are held
more or less horizontally are examples of the illegal positions used.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Welpe

What is the point of doing that?

He was blowing all over the place, not staying in his PCA.

[Welpe]

Gotcha, that makes more sense now.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Three years old (2011-12):

10-6 : CONTACT
ART. 1 A player shall not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s), or by bending his/her body into other than a normal position; nor use any rough tactics.
ART. 2 A player shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent’s hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball.
ART. 3 A player shall not use his/her hands on an opponent in any way that inhibits the freedom of movement of the opponent or acts as an aid to a player in starting or stopping.

ART. 4 A player shall not extend the arm(s) fully or partially other than vertically so that freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with the arms occurs. A player may hold his/her hand(s) and arm(s) in front of his/her own face or body for protection and to absorb force from an imminent charge by an opponent.

4-24:
ART. 5 It is not legal to use hands on an opponent which in any way inhibits the freedom of movement of the opponent or acts as an aid to a player in starting or stopping.
ART. 6 It is not legal to extend the arms fully or partially in a position other than vertical so that the freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with the arms occurs. The extension of the elbows when the hands are on the hips or when the hands are held near the chest or when the arms are held more or less horizontally are examples of the illegal positions used.

Those items are exactly the same thing as we have today in concept. They just changed the wording to get people to make call. The specific acts that should have been a foul haven't changed.

Even if officials were not calling it under the excuse of RSBQ and advantage/disadvantage, the rulesmakers were telling us for years that such conclusions were wrong, that it WAS affecting RSBQ even if most officials thought otherwise, and that it was an advantage even if most officials thought otherwise. That had to make it absolutes so officials wouldn't keep ignoring it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Three years old (2011-12):

10-6 : CONTACT
ART. 1 A player shall not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress
of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s), or by
bending his/her body into other than a normal position; nor use any rough tactics.
ART. 2 A player shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless
such contact is only with the opponent’s hand while it is on the ball and is
incidental to an attempt to play the ball.
ART. 3 A player shall not use his/her hands on an opponent in any way that
inhibits the freedom of movement of the opponent or acts as an aid to a player in
starting or stopping.
ART. 4 A player shall not extend the arm(s) fully or partially other than
vertically so that freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact
with the arms occurs. A player may hold his/her hand(s) and arm(s) in front of
his/her own face or body for protection and to absorb force from an imminent
charge by an opponent.

4-24: ART. 5 It is not legal to use hands on an opponent which in any way inhibits
the freedom of movement of the opponent or acts as an aid to a player in starting
or stopping.
ART. 6 It is not legal to extend the arms fully or partially in a position other
than vertical so that the freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when
contact with the arms occurs. The extension of the elbows when the hands are
on the hips or when the hands are held near the chest or when the arms are held
more or less horizontally are examples of the illegal positions used.

That does not say all the things that is in 10-6-12. I never said there were not contact rules, but they were not descriptive as 10-6-12 and what is in 10-6-12 were once guidelines, not specific rules.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That does not say all the things that is in 10-6-12. I never said there were not contact rules, but they were not descriptive as 10-6-12 and what is in 10-6-12 were once guidelines, not specific rules.

Peace

All the things in 10-6-12 are covered in that. It was not so directly spelled out but since some many were just not getting, they spelled it out in simpler terms.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

All the things in 10-6-12 are covered in that. It was not so directly spelled out but since some many were just not getting, they spelled it out in simpler terms.

If it all covered, why add more to the rule? Never heard anyone say "Two hands on the ball handler is a foul" before the guidelines were created.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If it all covered, why add more to the rule? Never heard anyone say "Two hands on the ball handler is a foul" before the guidelines were created.

Peace

Again, thank you for proving my point.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If it all covered, why add more to the rule? Never heard anyone say "Two hands on the ball handler is a foul" before the guidelines were created.

Peace

Because we weren't officiating games the way the rules were telling us to. The NFHS tried on several occasions to get us to. Finally they just said the 4 automatics are what is listed in the 2011-12 10-6 rule, they do have an affect on RSBQ and that it isn't open for interpretation.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I've noticed the same. VHSL = no surprises. But some of the non-VHSL games I do (VISAA, HRAC, etc.) = not so much. So like Rich was saying, we're calling the fouls in those games and some (not all) of the coaches are shocked. Had one chirping about a 9-4 foul count the other night, but the thing is we talked about the renewed emphasis on FOM via Rule 10-6 at the pre-game coaches/captains conference! And his team didn't get it. So I politely reminded him about it, later I had to warn him, and as he was walking to the locker room at halftime....well let's just say we started the 3rd quarter with free throws. He still won by 21. Not on my Christmas card list.

On a more general note, two-hands is an easy black-and-white call (seen lots of those, usually when a defender starts to get beat and panics), and I've seen a few extended arm bars. But I haven't noticed too much hand-checking (hot stove or maintained hand). Seems like the players are only getting half of the message.

I fixed those for you.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

State semi-finals in football this weekend but pubic public school basketball started on Nov. 30th, private schools started a 2 weeks before that.

And one for you too.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Again, thank you for proving my point.

If you say so. I did not start calling "Two hands on the dribbler" as an automatic foul in a NF game until they added 10-6-12. I never looked at the other contact rules under 10-6 as the same thing and no one else seemed to believe that because they had to add the last part of that rule.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Because we weren't officiating games the way the rules were telling us to. The NFHS tried on several occasions to get us to. Finally they just said the 4 automatics are what is listed in the 2011-12 10-6 rule, they do have an affect on RSBQ and that it isn't open for interpretation.

I was never told that is what the rules were. People used more RSBQ, but for 10-6-12, we do not use RSBQ. The minute those things happen, they are fouls. I do not wait for anything to decide a foul needs to be called.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

... but the thing is we talked about the renewed emphasis on FOM via Rule 10-6 at the pre-game coaches conference! And his team didn't get it. ....

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I fixed those for you.


And one for you too.

And what did you fix? What was wrong with what cc55 originally posted?