Scrimmage not so fun

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not think teams should play each other before the season. Just my take. It sounds like you create some other issues by doing this.

Originally Posted by Rich

Well, that's what scrimmages are in most of the civilized world -- teams scrimmage each other.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well then play a real game. But I mostly hear of all these problems about how they are handled. If they are scrimmages, then why all the problems?

I've been working high school varsity intersquad scrimmages for thirty-five years, and never once considered that the extremely rare problems that I had encountered, like a player mouthing of to me, were caused because there were two different teams involved.

Players could mouth of to an official in an intrasquad scrimmage just as easily as in an intersquad scrimmage.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I've been working high school varsity intersquad scrimmages for thirty-five years, and never once considered that the extremely rare problems that I had encountered, like a player mouthing of to me, were caused because there were two different teams involved.

Players could mouth of to an official in an intrasquad scrimmage just as easily as in an intersquad scrimmage.

The last statement is very true, but at least a coach can handle it and decide what to do. When the actions between teams tend to be more contentious and they are not playing with their "friends" they environment is much more laid back. When they are competing against opponents that they do not like already, a lot more can happen. At least in a real game there is consequences. It could be just like a summer game that also has not governing body jurisdiction over the contest, but there are usually some defined standards of behavior that often are more harsh than the actual regular season games for at least the league, tournament or shootout involved.

And I am not so much worried about them mouthing off to me, but what they do with the opponent. Even during a scrimmage we do when they mouth off to me, I am much more vocal and explain to them what could happen in a real situation. But those games are so laid back that this almost never becomes the case.

Peace

[OKREF]

Aren't you guys told to treat scrimmages just like a normal game? We've always been told to treat them the same.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Aren't you guys told to treat scrimmages just like a normal game? We've always been told to treat them the same.

No. Most of the time they are done to just play a "quarter" or a brief period of time. And as I stated, these are intrasquad scrimmages which often involve different levels like the Sophomore team playing the Varsity and we are not keeping track of any fouls or even shooting normal shots on fouls (1 for 2).

Heck on Thursday I had a scrimmage which for the very first time they ran situations where they would play a real timed game but would play like the last 4 minutes of a half or play an overtime period with set fouls already on the board. But parents are there and they are mostly trying to just showcase the new teams for the year and give parents a way to see the team before they play.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

No. Most of the time they are done to just play a "quarter" or a brief period of time ... we are not keeping track of any fouls or even shooting normal shots on fouls ...

In my little corner of Connecticut, most intersquad scrimmages are played in six periods (four varsity, two subvarsity), stop time, with the score reset to zero after each period. We don't keep track of personal, or team, fouls, and we only shoot "in the act", and "and one", free throws.

Odd tradition here, players never wear their "real" uniforms in intersquad scrimmages, they always wear T-shirts, or scrimmage vests. Officials often have to report fouls on player #0 because many players don't have numbers.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

No. Most of the time they are done to just play a "quarter" or a brief period of time. And as I stated, these are intrasquad scrimmages which often involve different levels like the Sophomore team playing the Varsity and we are not keeping track of any fouls or even shooting normal shots on fouls (1 for 2).

Heck on Thursday I had a scrimmage which for the very first time they ran situations where they would play a real timed game but would play like the last 4 minutes of a half or play an overtime period with set fouls already on the board. But parents are there and they are mostly trying to just showcase the new teams for the year and give parents a way to see the team before they play.

Peace

Here we've always been instructed that any ejections during a scrimmage will be treated just the same as a regular season game. We call fouls but don't keep track either. All technical fouls on coaches or players still carry the same weight as a regular season game. All of the scrimmages here are between two teams and sometimes we even have three ways. Most of the time they play 8-10 quarters. Running clock.

Even in football teams play 1 or 2 scrimmages against another team. All rules apply, we throw flags but don't usually mark the yardage off. All rules apply to scrimmages just like regular season games. Any fights or ejections and players/coaches are subject to disciplinary action

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Here we've always been instructed that any ejections during a scrimmage will be treated just the same as a regular season game. We call fouls but don't keep track either. All technical fouls on coaches or players still carry the same weight as a regular season game. All of the scrimmages here are between two teams and sometimes we even have three ways. Most of the time they play 8-10 quarters. Running clock.

Even in football teams play 1 or 2 scrimmages against another team. All rules apply, we throw flags but don't usually mark the yardage off. All rules apply to scrimmages just like regular season games. Any fights or ejections and players/coaches are subject to disciplinary action

Again, more drama than we have to deal with. There is no T to give. What are we going to T someone for being out of the coaching box? Heck we have had coaches stop the game to give instruction (just like a practice).

Even in the football example you gave, coaches are all over the field, usually right in the offensive backfield and if we have a penalty, we might not even mark it off. In some cases, there are two different units going on on the same field going from the 30s or 40s to each goal line.

Like I said, these are practices, nothing more but with officials on the field or court.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Aren't you guys told to treat scrimmages just like a normal game? We've always been told to treat them the same.

that's generally how they want us to officiate the play, but not the behavior. Rich is right, when I'm working for free and the points don't matter, it's different. Just give the coach a chance to shut down the chatter (either from his bench or the players), then calmly walk away and file a report.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

At least in a real game there is consequences.

Good point. I'm not sure how the coach, athletic director, principal, or the Connecticut state interscholastic sports governing body, would handle a fight in an intersquad scrimmage, but I know how I, as on official, would handle it, just like it was a real game. Flagrant fouls, disqualifications, ejections of coaches (if warranted by rule), game reports to my assignment commissioner, and to the state interscholastic sports governing body. And if the coaches involved, or the site director, didn't comply with any of the penalties I imposed during the scrimmage, then I'm heading out the door, and I'll worry about my check later.

By the way, that's exactly how I would handle a fight in an intrasquad scrimmage.

Back to reality. I don't believe that I charged a technical foul in a scrimmage in thirty-five years. But there can always be a first time.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good point. I'm not sure how the coach, athletic director, principal, or the Connecticut state interscholastic sports governing body, would handle a fight in an intersquad scrimmage, but I know how I, as on official, would handle it, just like it was a real game. Flagrant fouls, disqualifications, ejections of coaches (if warranted by rule), game reports to my assignment commissioner, and to the state interscholastic sports governing body. And if the coaches involved, or the site director, didn't comply with any of the penalties I imposed during the scrimmage, then I'm heading out the door, and I'll worry about my check later.

By the way, that's exactly how I would handle a fight in an intrasquad scrimmage.

Back to reality. I don't believe that I charged a technical foul in a scrimmage in thirty-five years. But there can always be a first time.

That is why I see the problem. You have to "hope" everyone complies. If we have a fight in an scrimmage with teammates, that is up to the school do decide what works and we do not have to worry about that kind of thing escalating anyway as all the individuals involved are on the same program. I will never suggest a fight could not happen with teammates, because it certainly can, but these guys a least know each other have something to gain outside of playing each others. Again, these are primarily to give teams a chance to meet the public, that is it really.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is why I see the problem. You have to "hope" everyone complies.

I don't have to "hope" anything. I'm in full control at the site, and I only care about how everyone complies at the site, because if they don't comply with any of my penalties in the scrimmage, then I'm out the door. I'll even call a forfeit (yes, in a scrimmage) on my way out to make it official (officially ending the contest) before I hit the highway.

It would be nice if the penalties move up the ladder (athletic director, principal, the state interscholastic sports governing body), but compliance up the ladder wouldn't be high on my priority list, although I would file the necessary paperwork.

And this could happen in either an intersquad, or an intrasquad, scrimmage.

Coach: "You can't disqualify him. We're not keeping track of fouls".

BillyMac: "He's disqualified for trying to throw a punch".

Coach: "He's gonna keep playing. It's only a scrimmage".

BillyMac: "If that's the case coach, then you're going to forfeit the contest".

Coach: "I don't care. The game doesn't count".

BillyMac (to table): "This team (pointing) forfeits. I'm outta here."

And, when I get home. I'll contact my assignment commissioner, discuss the matter, and talk about filing all the necessary paperwork.

Scene.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I don't have to "hope" anything, I only care about how everyone complies at the site, because if they don't comply with any of my penalties in the scrimmage, then I'm out the door. I'll even call a forfeit (yes, in a scrimmage) on my way out to make it official (officially ending the contest) before I hit the highway.

It would be nice if the penalties move up the ladder (athletic director, principal, the state interscholastic sports governing body), but compliance up the ladder wouldn't be high on my priority list, although I would file the necessary paperwork.

And this (above) could happen in either an intersquad, or an intrasquad, scrimmage.

When I say hope, I mean you have to deal with the fallout. I do not have to write anyone or even tell the assignor anything about the scrimmage or what happened. Often these might not even involve just 2 or 3 officials and there might be officials constantly rotating into the contest to get some reps. Again, it is a very laid back event and often the coach wants the officials to talk to the team or even the parents about new rules or situations coming for the year.

You are right, problems could happen at any scrimmage. But I have never heard of anything happening in my state as I read on this board when teams are playing each other in a "scrimmage." Even in football where you cannot play another team, very little if anything happens that would raise any eyebrows.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

And this could happen in either an intersquad, or an intrasquad, scrimmage.

Coach: "You can't disqualify him. We're not keeping track of fouls".

BillyMac: "He's disqualified for trying to throw a punch".

Coach: "He's gonna keep playing".

BillyMac: "If that's the case coach, then you're going to forfeit the contest".

Coach: "I don't care. The game doesn't count".

BillyMac (to table): "This team (pointing) forfeits. I'm outta here."

There would be no conversation of forfeit. There would be hardly any conversation about who can play. There would also no such conversation honestly. If we had those kinds of problems, I would walk off. And I would not likely have to even have any worries by doing so if it was that contentious. Scrimmages here are just practice.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Scrimmages here are just practice.

Agree. But once the scrimmage starts, it's the official who is in charge, not the coach.

Coaches are in charge at practice.

The buck has to stop somewhere.

"Too many chiefs, not enough Indians", will never work in a basketball contest.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I don't have to "hope" anything. I'm in full control at the site, and I only care about how everyone complies at the site, because if they don't comply with any of my penalties in the scrimmage, then I'm out the door. I'll even call a forfeit (yes, in a scrimmage) on my way out to make it official (officially ending the contest) before I hit the highway.

It would be nice if the penalties move up the ladder (athletic director, principal, the state interscholastic sports governing body), but compliance up the ladder wouldn't be high on my priority list, although I would file the necessary paperwork.

And this could happen in either an intersquad, or an intrasquad, scrimmage.

Coach: "You can't disqualify him. We're not keeping track of fouls".

BillyMac: "He's disqualified for trying to throw a punch".

Coach: "He's gonna keep playing. It's only a scrimmage".

BillyMac: "If that's the case coach, then you're going to forfeit the contest".

Coach: "I don't care. The game doesn't count".

BillyMac (to table): "This team (pointing) forfeits. I'm outta here."

And, when I get home. I'll contact my assignment commissioner, discuss the matter, and talk about filing all the necessary paperwork.

Scene.

Agree. During a scrimmage here, we have full authority to eject any player or coach. We must contact director of officials and the player/coach will serve same penalty as they would in the season. If a coach is ejected in a scrimmage he must miss the first regular season game. If a player is ejected for fighting it a two game suspension.