Scrimmage not so fun

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good point. I'm not sure how the coach, athletic director, principal, or the Connecticut state interscholastic sports governing body, would handle a fight in an intersquad scrimmage, but I know how I, as on official, would handle it, just like it was a real game. Flagrant fouls, disqualifications, ejections of coaches (if warranted by rule), game reports to my assignment commissioner, and to the state interscholastic sports governing body. And if the coaches involved, or the site director, didn't comply with any of the penalties I imposed during the scrimmage, then I'm heading out the door, and I'll worry about my check later.

By the way, that's exactly how I would handle a fight in an intrasquad scrimmage.

Back to reality. I don't believe that I charged a technical foul in a scrimmage in thirty-five years. But there can always be a first time.

That is why I see the problem. You have to "hope" everyone complies. If we have a fight in an scrimmage with teammates, that is up to the school do decide what works and we do not have to worry about that kind of thing escalating anyway as all the individuals involved are on the same program. I will never suggest a fight could not happen with teammates, because it certainly can, but these guys a least know each other have something to gain outside of playing each others. Again, these are primarily to give teams a chance to meet the public, that is it really.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is why I see the problem. You have to "hope" everyone complies.

I don't have to "hope" anything. I'm in full control at the site, and I only care about how everyone complies at the site, because if they don't comply with any of my penalties in the scrimmage, then I'm out the door. I'll even call a forfeit (yes, in a scrimmage) on my way out to make it official (officially ending the contest) before I hit the highway.

It would be nice if the penalties move up the ladder (athletic director, principal, the state interscholastic sports governing body), but compliance up the ladder wouldn't be high on my priority list, although I would file the necessary paperwork.

And this could happen in either an intersquad, or an intrasquad, scrimmage.

Coach: "You can't disqualify him. We're not keeping track of fouls".

BillyMac: "He's disqualified for trying to throw a punch".

Coach: "He's gonna keep playing. It's only a scrimmage".

BillyMac: "If that's the case coach, then you're going to forfeit the contest".

Coach: "I don't care. The game doesn't count".

BillyMac (to table): "This team (pointing) forfeits. I'm outta here."

And, when I get home. I'll contact my assignment commissioner, discuss the matter, and talk about filing all the necessary paperwork.

Scene.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I don't have to "hope" anything, I only care about how everyone complies at the site, because if they don't comply with any of my penalties in the scrimmage, then I'm out the door. I'll even call a forfeit (yes, in a scrimmage) on my way out to make it official (officially ending the contest) before I hit the highway.

It would be nice if the penalties move up the ladder (athletic director, principal, the state interscholastic sports governing body), but compliance up the ladder wouldn't be high on my priority list, although I would file the necessary paperwork.

And this (above) could happen in either an intersquad, or an intrasquad, scrimmage.

When I say hope, I mean you have to deal with the fallout. I do not have to write anyone or even tell the assignor anything about the scrimmage or what happened. Often these might not even involve just 2 or 3 officials and there might be officials constantly rotating into the contest to get some reps. Again, it is a very laid back event and often the coach wants the officials to talk to the team or even the parents about new rules or situations coming for the year.

You are right, problems could happen at any scrimmage. But I have never heard of anything happening in my state as I read on this board when teams are playing each other in a "scrimmage." Even in football where you cannot play another team, very little if anything happens that would raise any eyebrows.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

No. Most of the time they are done to just play a "quarter" or a brief period of time. And as I stated, these are intrasquad scrimmages which often involve different levels like the Sophomore team playing the Varsity and we are not keeping track of any fouls or even shooting normal shots on fouls (1 for 2).

Heck on Thursday I had a scrimmage which for the very first time they ran situations where they would play a real timed game but would play like the last 4 minutes of a half or play an overtime period with set fouls already on the board. But parents are there and they are mostly trying to just showcase the new teams for the year and give parents a way to see the team before they play.

Peace

Here we've always been instructed that any ejections during a scrimmage will be treated just the same as a regular season game. We call fouls but don't keep track either. All technical fouls on coaches or players still carry the same weight as a regular season game. All of the scrimmages here are between two teams and sometimes we even have three ways. Most of the time they play 8-10 quarters. Running clock.

Even in football teams play 1 or 2 scrimmages against another team. All rules apply, we throw flags but don't usually mark the yardage off. All rules apply to scrimmages just like regular season games. Any fights or ejections and players/coaches are subject to disciplinary action

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

And this could happen in either an intersquad, or an intrasquad, scrimmage.

Coach: "You can't disqualify him. We're not keeping track of fouls".

BillyMac: "He's disqualified for trying to throw a punch".

Coach: "He's gonna keep playing".

BillyMac: "If that's the case coach, then you're going to forfeit the contest".

Coach: "I don't care. The game doesn't count".

BillyMac (to table): "This team (pointing) forfeits. I'm outta here."

There would be no conversation of forfeit. There would be hardly any conversation about who can play. There would also no such conversation honestly. If we had those kinds of problems, I would walk off. And I would not likely have to even have any worries by doing so if it was that contentious. Scrimmages here are just practice.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Scrimmages here are just practice.

Agree. But once the scrimmage starts, it's the official who is in charge, not the coach.

Coaches are in charge at practice.

The buck has to stop somewhere.

"Too many chiefs, not enough Indians", will never work in a basketball contest.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Here we've always been instructed that any ejections during a scrimmage will be treated just the same as a regular season game. We call fouls but don't keep track either. All technical fouls on coaches or players still carry the same weight as a regular season game. All of the scrimmages here are between two teams and sometimes we even have three ways. Most of the time they play 8-10 quarters. Running clock.

Even in football teams play 1 or 2 scrimmages against another team. All rules apply, we throw flags but don't usually mark the yardage off. All rules apply to scrimmages just like regular season games. Any fights or ejections and players/coaches are subject to disciplinary action

Again, more drama than we have to deal with. There is no T to give. What are we going to T someone for being out of the coaching box? Heck we have had coaches stop the game to give instruction (just like a practice).

Even in the football example you gave, coaches are all over the field, usually right in the offensive backfield and if we have a penalty, we might not even mark it off. In some cases, there are two different units going on on the same field going from the 30s or 40s to each goal line.

Like I said, these are practices, nothing more but with officials on the field or court.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I don't have to "hope" anything. I'm in full control at the site, and I only care about how everyone complies at the site, because if they don't comply with any of my penalties in the scrimmage, then I'm out the door. I'll even call a forfeit (yes, in a scrimmage) on my way out to make it official (officially ending the contest) before I hit the highway.

It would be nice if the penalties move up the ladder (athletic director, principal, the state interscholastic sports governing body), but compliance up the ladder wouldn't be high on my priority list, although I would file the necessary paperwork.

And this could happen in either an intersquad, or an intrasquad, scrimmage.

Coach: "You can't disqualify him. We're not keeping track of fouls".

BillyMac: "He's disqualified for trying to throw a punch".

Coach: "He's gonna keep playing. It's only a scrimmage".

BillyMac: "If that's the case coach, then you're going to forfeit the contest".

Coach: "I don't care. The game doesn't count".

BillyMac (to table): "This team (pointing) forfeits. I'm outta here."

And, when I get home. I'll contact my assignment commissioner, discuss the matter, and talk about filing all the necessary paperwork.

Scene.

Agree. During a scrimmage here, we have full authority to eject any player or coach. We must contact director of officials and the player/coach will serve same penalty as they would in the season. If a coach is ejected in a scrimmage he must miss the first regular season game. If a player is ejected for fighting it a two game suspension.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree. But once the scrimmage starts, it's the official who is in charge, not the coach. Coaches are in charge at practice.

And like I said, these are practices. The coaches are totally in charge of their practice. They decide what we do and what we do not do. We work with them to run the practice and call what we see. But then again, you are playing a game, we are running a practice. That is why we rotate officials in and out of these situations often just to get some work. Everyone is practicing.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The coaches are totally in charge of their practice. They decide what we do and what we do not do. We work with them to run the practice and call what we see.

Officials are in charge at a scrimmage. If coaches want to change some rules, we can often work with them (don't shoot one and ones).

But it two kids get involved with fight, and the coach convinces me not to disqualify them, and I comply with the coach, and the same two kids get in another fight (worst case scenario), with one of the kids getting seriously hurt, then my lawyer is going to make a lot of money defending me in a lawsuit.

There is absolutely no way that I'm giving up all of my authority as an official in any type of assignment, like allowing a coach to convince me to allow a disqualified player from continuing to play. It's his practice, but it's my scrimmage.

Rotating officials in, and out, of a scrimmage has nothing to do with this debate. They are all basketball officials.

Here's the reason for this debate:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Here, scrimmages are always intra-squad. I've never seen one where it involves two different teams.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In thirty five years, I've never worked an intrasquad scrimmage, all have been intersquad.

We live in two different worlds. Two experienced officials who have been around the block a few times, with two completely different experiences. The famous, or infamous, "When in Rome ..." situation.

But based on my experience as a basketball player, and as a middle school basketball coach, I still maintain that the same problems can occur in an intrasquad scrimmage, as an intersquad scrimmage.

Teammates can, and will fight. Usually it involves a girl.

Opponents can, and will fight. Usually it involves some type of disrespect.

As the contest official, in my scrimmage, they're on the bench, no matter how much the coach pleads his case.

If he won't allow me to be in charge, then I'm out the door.

After all, that's why I was asked (volunteered, or assigned) to be there, to be in charge of the contest. Otherwise why ask for officials? Assistant coaches can blow whistles just like officials can.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Officials are in charge at a scrimmage. If coaches want to change some rules, we can often work with them (don't shoot one and ones).

They are not changing rules, it is their event. They can decide to have officials or not have officials. They can do whatever they wish at their event. I cannot speak for what happens here, but they can only play so many games during the year. For example the regular season does not start for the boys until next week. Anything this week is not a game or sanctioned in any way. I guess the IHSA could tell them how they run such an event, but it does not count so they do not care as along as they do not play another team. We are asked to participate and they decide to pay us and whomever we choose to show up for. Some assignors assign the officials, others have some official or coach asking guys to work the scrimmage. There is nothing to debate with them if they choose to run a single 10 minute quarter or just play on the half court.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

But it two kids get involved with fight, and the coach convinces me not to disqualify them, and I comply with the coach, and the same two kids get in another fight (worst case scenario), with one the kids getting seriously hurt, then my lawyer is going to make a lot of money defending me in a lawsuit.

There is absolutely no way that I'm giving up my authority as an official in any type of assignment, like allowing a coach to convince me to allow a disqualified player from continuing to play. It's his practice, but it's my scrimmage.

There is nothing to disqualify, it is a practice. If a fight happens during a practice, it is up to the school and the coach to decide what conduct rules are violated. The IHSA does not give us any authority during these events. It is just like a summer game, if there is a fight the IHSA does not set the standards for the rules over the summer.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Rotating officials in, and out, of a scrimmage has nothing to do with this debate. They are all basketball officials.

OK and all events are not treated the same when it is outside of the prescribed rules of the event.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Here's the reason for this debate:

We live in two different worlds. Two experienced officials who have been around the block a few times, with two completely different experiences. The famous, or infamous, "When in Rome ..." situation.

But based on my experience as a basketball player, and as a middle school basketball coach, I still maintain that the same problems can occur in an intrasquad scrimmage, as an intersquad scrimmage.

Teammates can, and will fight. Usually it involves a girl.

Honestly, I am really not debating anything with you. I was just saying I am glad we do not have intersquad scrimmages and do not deal with the issues I read or have read over the years on this site that take place during scrimmages. And it appears their is a lot of questioning on this site with things that happen as people have to come here to find out what they should do in a situation that does not count. All this talk about liability and control is flat out silly to me. If a coach asks me or anyone to show up to a practice (which happens a lot during college levels), no one is treating them like a real game on any level. I do not know what your coaching has to do with this conversation. It is clear what you might do and others might do, might not apply to every place. I am sure even some of the things you claim you find so important are not as important in other areas.

I also did not say that there cannot ever be problems in a in-team scrimmage. But I have yet in all my years in both football and basketball ever heard of the problems or issues I read on this site. Never had to throw anyone out or have a fight. Even when we do our job and call every foul and every penalty that occurs, the coach is right there to correct the situation. I have more issues in 7 on 7 or summer leagues where they are competing with another team and their is some "skin" in the game for the participants. There is no "skin" in the game during a scrimmage (here) because everyone knows what the other team is running on offense or defensive sets and coaches certainly do not want to get anyone hurt for when it starts for year. You guys just do it differently and I am glad I do not have to deal with that so I have to decide if someone is getting a flagrant foul or not.

The girls started on Monday and the boys start this coming Monday. Most games are tournaments and multiple games in a week so they are worried about competing against other teams, not trying to kill each other when most teams will play 4 or 5 games next week.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Teammates can, and will fight. Usually it involves a girl.

What if it is the girl's team?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Opponents can, and will fight. Usually it involves some type of disrespect.

Yes, and why I am glad we do not have to worry about this and ask, "What can we do.....????"

Originally Posted by BillyMac

As the contest official, in my scrimmage, they're on the bench, no matter how much the coach pleads his case.

Again, no such debate to have. The coach is running the event. We tell them what we would do normally and they decide what they would do. What are the losing, 4 extra minutes of running clock?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If he won't allow me to be in charge, then I'm out the door.

Fine, but if it was real you would have that discussion now would you?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

After all, that's why I was asked (volunteered, or assigned) to be there, to be in charge of the contest. Otherwise why ask for officials? Assistant coaches can blow whistles just like officials can.

We are volunteering. We can always reject a scrimmage by pretty much anyone. And if we are not paid, I know officials that refuse. Most of the time we are working at a place that is close to home or it is not worth our while.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The coach is running the event.

If I'm officiating a scrimmage, and a player tells me to, "Go f... myself.", and I charge him with a flagrant foul, and sit him on the bench, and the coach tells me that the kid needs to play to get ready for the season ... If the coach doesn't back me, and the kid plays, I've lost all respect that I may have gained as an official.

I can't punch the player in the face. I can't swear back at him. The only tool in my belt is to sit him on the bench, and if the coach wants to take that tool away, then I'm hitting the pavement.

Fights. Swearing. In my opinion, these can happen in both intrasquad, and intersquad, scrimmages. Either way, I'm handling it the same way, by the book.

[mutantducky]

I hope the player gets suspended from school. jackass

There always is some loser coach who passes on that loser attitude to his players. Scrimmage...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Aren't you guys told to treat scrimmages just like a normal game? We've always been told to treat them the same.

that's generally how they want us to officiate the play, but not the behavior. Rich is right, when I'm working for free and the points don't matter, it's different. Just give the coach a chance to shut down the chatter (either from his bench or the players), then calmly walk away and file a report.